Paula Curtis (00:42)
Welcome. Today we have Mark Langley and Mark Langley's work really focuses on helping horses find confidence, balance and self esteem. His approach focuses on the mind and the body. So we've got the mind aspect in there creating horses that are relaxed, responsive and willing. If you've ever wanted to understand how to train in a way that truly feels good to your horse, then I know you're going to love this chat that we're having here with Mark today. So welcome, Mark. It's great to have you.
Thanks very much Paula. Thanks very much Jack for having me on board. It's quite exciting just to, you know, talk to some new people and share some things. It's just really good. I appreciate it. Yeah, these conversations are always so much fun for us and really a joy. So what sparked your passion for horses and inspired you to pursue the path that you're on here today? Well, it's funny how the path I'm on today, I never realized this path was even something that I do.
back in the past, you know, I grew up with horses, my parents, you know, grew up with them with horses. You know, my dad got into long distance horse trekking. went through pony club with my mom and did all that sort of stuff. And then later on leaving school, you know, working on cattle properties and, you know, with sheep and cattle and different things like that. And then, you know, pursuing my own business in the horse trekking side of things for a little bit too as well.
I did travel overseas, the, sometimes Australians, they do the yearly backpacker when you go overseas. And I worked and managed the horses on a place in Scotland there for about eight months. And that was a British horse society way of teaching, but also they did a lot of trekking in the high country and then worked on a horsemanship ranch in America. Came back with some sort of big ideas. I might get into training some of my own horses and doing a little bit. then, but at that time, I must admit the truth be told I was
Still in a mindset that horses, you know, they're still part of a tool and you know, we, worked them and the real passion, I guess, to help horses in, in, I guess, more in a psychological way as well as physical way came through when I started getting a bit more handy. So we used to get horses jumped off trucks and you know what, you know, horses that have never, never seen people before. And you might, you might call them the Mustangs. We've got the Brumbies over here, but then you also got a lot of breeders in the bush that just breed them and then, right. I run them in and just chuck them on a truck, get them started. And.
And so you'd have that aspect of really learning how to be around horses to be very effective and very efficient to get the job done. Cause there was no, yeah, just take them another week, sunny. You'll be right. It was like you had to kind of do a job, but then I also had to be safe and I, and I liked horses and wanted them to feel good about what they were doing. And through seeing and learning that taught me a lot of feel about horses and you know, where, how to step in the right way, when to step back, when to sort of, you know, all that sort of stuff that you kind of do around horses, but then.
I guess a love for horses came more so when I started getting a bit of a name for taking troubled horses and then you get troubled horses that have sort of, you know, got the wrong end of the stick. They've lived in the mosh pit of life and they come out broken and frightened and, you know, flipped over in cross ties, all sorts of the from, from jumping to shut down horses and off the track horses and then
I guess something started to change in me. First, it was about, wanted a soft horse and I wanted a connection and I, and I liked horses like, me as much as I, you know, like them. then I started to really feel for what they went through in training when I was getting more broken horses, you know, that were misrepresented through training and life. And through, through working with those horses, I guess, I opened my heart up to really feeling what they've been through and trying to figure out how we can make it better.
So if they go back into the mosh pit of human life and coexisting with people, it's better for them. And also how we can avoid it right from through the early stages of handling and starting and all that sort of thing. And I guess that's why for me is initially, as I said, my, my education had to be very effective because it wasn't like I had a six week start with horses. It was, it was a shorter start, but I had to be effective and still have a horse that was soft.
Not just obedient and shut down, but it's still soft and I can ride it out, you know, out into the unknown and it could cope with that. Yeah. A lot of tools that I practiced that I'd learned when I was in America and different things, I threw away very quickly because the horses were saying, this is not right. You have to go back and fix what you've done. And through fixing what I've done and trying to be more effective, made me train in a different way. And over the years I was slowly evolving.
And now I guess what's happened because of seeing and feeling and helping those broken horses. Now I do clinics. You know, I'm really big on teaching people that we get our horse back into a healthy mindset to train it and, how training is such a important link to getting horses to feel good. So, so I guess that's where I'm at at now. And, and over the times, like my neighbor lent me an old book and it was probably 15 or more years ago. It was, was one of the Mark Brash's old books when he was a kid and
There was something that really struck a note with me in that. I guess that's where my really thoughtfulness in, don't listen to other people, go with your gut came from. And it was, it was through Mark just talking about, you know, the idea of not pushing horses away so much, you know, taking the alpha approach on them, as in not taking the alpha approach. And it got me thinking about all the stuff that I'd seen and the things that I was starting to throw away myself and going, why do I want to do this? And I realized that.
Well, from there on, thought, well, and what I got out of it was if you push your horse away, they will soon know where you want them. So from there, it really changed my sort of mindset in, want to direct a horse and not drive it all the time. Cause when I was in America, it was all drive based on the horsemanship branch and, know, send them away from pressure. So, so the old message of Tom Dorrance, which was follow a field, looked more like move, get a horse to move away from a field, not follow a field. And, and, and from there, I, I, I stopped, kind of.
I guess I went, have confidence to go with what you feel and what you believe in what the horses are telling you instead of look at all these other trainers and try their methods. And very quickly I knew what to try and what not to try because I was the one that was going to get bucked off or I was the one that was going to get run through a fence. you know, it was my life that was on the line and Jenny was working and we kind of had nothing. So we just sort of.
I'm at home on my own. was no camaraderie, no bunch of cowboys to go, yeah, get on, it'll be right. get that sort of, was when you're out in the, in the silence of the bush on your own starting horses, you don't have that sort of, you know, it's like getting on a rodeo or getting on a horse when no one's around, it's a whole different feeling. So, so yeah. So, then, and then later on, like we were talking before about, you know, Harry Whitney, there was some writings that really I enjoyed. And I met a fellow came and went to one of my clinics over 10 years ago now.
And that's a fellow who writes a fair bit who's, guess his mentor is Harry Whitney. And he was talking about directing a horse's thoughts. And he fenced that one on my clinics and we got talking and we had similar ideas, but then reading his stuff helped me focus on, and I guess align myself more with where I was going, which was directing versus driving. And then, you know, and Ross Jacobs, his writings kind of led me to sort of
his mentor, Harry Whitney, who he'd sort of, you know, got a lot of influence off as well. And, and that all went back to the old saying of, you know, get a horse to follow a field, not move away from pressure all the time. And Harry's focus, as you know, and Ross's focus is always about directing a horse's thoughts. so by then I was already sort of going away from driving and trying to get horses to feel good about searching and, know, finding the answers. So, so I was like, this is the stuff.
that's really good this and I realize there's other people that are thinking on that path opposed to just going down the normal, know, drive, draw and desensitize kind of route. I think that, you know, we, we, we kind of learned that lesson as well. There's one particular story that I can think of that that was with Lee. Yeah, with me. And let me just, I'll preface it, not to cut you off. I'll preface it this way is that Lee got through
to me, to Paula, and at least to your parents. So she got through to four people profoundly forever, for the rest of our lives. We understood what you're talking about with directing their attention, directing their thoughts, kind of making it their idea and using curiosity. And so now, I mean, I want you to go ahead and explain your story. Well, yeah, I'll try to be real quick because this is more about you. But yeah, I had a horse, a young thoroughbred, you know, and I was a teenager, early 20s.
And I could do all these things, jump and bridle us. could do little P off in hand. You know, as a four year old, I, and I feel bad now, you know, you reflect back on the things that you did when you're younger, but he was probably four or five and I was jumping them over four foot fences bridle us. Cause I could, you know, and, at that point, that's where I was at in my training, we had a clinic and she was, my parents had some pretty good trainers come in and she was having people direct their horses mind
She was having them look over, you know, to the right at like the barn and then look this way and she's like, okay, now you guys do it. And I thought, okay, I could get my horse to look, but you could just, you know, his looking, you know, wasn't, engaged. she shook her head and looked at me and I want, you know, you're a young kid and you want to kind of prove yourself and you feel like you're doing all right.
And she goes, give, give me that rope. And like, it was magic, she just did a little bit and his eyes got bright, his ears perked up and he looked where she was directing him. The whole horse, the whole horse, you know, the mind, the body, the spirit, the everything. And, and I was like, I was really embarrassed and it was really humbling and it was exactly what I needed at the time because.
I realized that I was really good at training horses at that time doing exactly what you're saying. You you drive them, you make them, you know, you just, you teach them what they have to do and they kind of become your robot in a way, And I realized that I was, I was good at that, but I wasn't really a friend to my horse and I wasn't, my horse didn't really want to be with me. He did the things he had to do and it looked, you know, fine. But if I would have really looked at him.
and his spirit and his being and what he was really saying. I would have seen the real picture and, from there on, it changed my life and the way I trained and worked with horses because when you have eyes to see, and you really do have a love for the horse. Now you start truly listening to them and letting the horses be your teachers.
And that's exactly what you're talking about. What you do is you're listening to the horse and the horse is showing you what it needs and how you should communicate to it because you're using a conversation. It goes two ways. It's not from me to you. It's between the both of us. So yeah, that was just a quick story. It's completely, you know, yeah, right. It's
But the interesting thing about listening now, and this is the hardest thing doing clinics and stuff, not the hardest, no, it probably was the hardest originally when I started, but now when you start to hone your sort of skillsets on things is I have people now that are listening really hard to their horse and I'm saying, you're listening to a horse that's not communicating. And they think because they step back and listen, the horse will start to communicate. And I'm saying this horse has had 10 years of
being in a nightclub as an introvert and it knows how to read a book quietly and everyone can be in their doof doof party going around them and it's not even paying any, you know, so it's pretty well blocked out people. And I said, basically somehow we've got to get the horse to unlock again. And, you know, cause I have had horses and people that they've backed right off pressure because they thought pressure shut down my horses and now I'm going to back off. I'm going to sit in a paddock and the horse is going to come out and I'm like, well,
Yes, it may come out when the pressure's off, but as soon as you press a little bit of pressure, the horse is going to go back to its default, which is a coping mechanism that's been preset for the last 10 years. And now I'm like, it's good to be able to show someone when they can start to communicate and listen to their horse. But the hardest thing is get pressing the button to get the horse to come out and search again. like, it's almost like you see a turtle come out of its shell or an echidna when they bury down to suddenly come out and nobody's around.
walk away but as soon as you add pressure the turtle goes in the shell and it's each I guess over the years I've been trying to figure out how can we add a pressure or a feel to that horse to get it to search and communicate not just you know listen to its trauma and then step back and hopefully it's going to come good and so and that's been a mission in itself as well like you know
unlocking the shut down horses effectively. when you add pressure later on, they open more instead of close more. Even just the pressure of a horse trailer or horse float, you know, how can they open up in a horse float? I've got them listening to me now and they go in the horse float and close down. And that's, guess, you know, something that's so important now because, you know, once upon a time I thought I'm dealing with young horses and I'm starting horses all the time and they're all fine. And then it wasn't until I started doing clinics that I saw a lot more broken horses.
And the sad thing was that some of those people were doing it in the right intention. They did years of horsemanship and their message was to have a softer horse or a, but actually all I saw was a robotic horse that learned a program. And you may have seen that too, cause it's, think horsemanship is quite big. And I think it was an influence that I guess went through America, I guess, before it sort of started to filter out to Australia, but all like clinics and that sort of thing. And when it became a program,
You know, you can see a performance horse, a race horse or a, and a horsemanship horse now that's, that's got the same, you know, mechanical problems and emotional problems. So it's good to be able to sort of get horsemanship back to, think the track that it was meant to be, which was a soft thinking horse that can process and live and coexist with the pressure of life, but not feel trauma by it. And, and you know, good horsemanship comes from here.
from within us and not necessarily a program. Now we can, we love videos and we love seeing your videos because it gives us a vision of what we should do. It gives us a direction and maybe some ideas, but then we have to go on our own and try these things. And maybe we have our own style or our own take on it and that's okay. We all have our own style and that's fine. But the idea is that it's really coming from us. But I think
reading the horse first and of course having ourselves in check, being aware of ourselves and where we're at first, taking care of ourselves. And then we're able to observe the horse and go from there. I really appreciate that you growing up your whole life with horses, you really were dependent on them. It wasn't like something that you just, you needed the horse because you were out in rough country. Maybe you needed to get to town on your horse. You lived with them and you actually needed the horse and needed the horse like
as a, with the horse had a job to do. And so many people miss that point. But I'm curious with, with where you grew up and everything that you did, did you ever get into a really sticky situation with the horse? Do you have a story about anything like, like that? Oh, I've got plenty of sticky situations of when I sort of threw myself in the mosh pit of taking on all sorts of horses and all ages and stuff like that. And, you know, it's the horses that taught me the most were the ones that, you know,
were the ones that scared me the most, suppose. So there's those stories, but then there's the stories of being stuck when dad had to go away and I was only sort of about 14 and I was left in the wilderness and he was subpoenaed to court, but we running late to be on the jury. And then one of the horses had wind gall and I had to stay down there for about three nights with the horses and then get them out this sort of spur. But I decided to go another way because someone came through late at night with cattle or not late at night, just on dusk.
with cattle and they said, there's another track you can take out through this like steep country. And, and, and just being down there with the horses and then getting completely. Well, I wasn't lost. knew where I was going, but then no one could find me once I got to the top. Cause it was all just, you know, state forest and forestry and all sorts of things. And just those days and getting the horses out was, you know, just living with them and doing that was all, all, all great stuff. And the funny thing is, is we used to ride through mobs of wild horses, like Brumbies and
I wish now, if I rode through those horses again, I would have, wished I would have stopped and paid a lot more attention to all the little tiny things that were going on all the time through those mobs instead of the main things that you see. But the biggest learning curves in horse training that I, that I, that I've had was me misunderstanding a horse and then getting in in a, in a kind of a bolting experience or a, or I don't have any control over this horse and what have I done? And it was interesting over the years, I think.
some of the quietest horses that I started with the ones that, well, seemingly quiet ones that I started with the ones that set me up for the biggest failures. And you've probably heard that, you know, heard this and seen this or had this experience yourself that there were horses that were born to kind of going into their shell straight early instead of other horses that are out there. Cause I did a lot of Arab horses and one particular mare, she could buck and throw herself in, she could twist and fall on the ground. And she was a very frightened mare, but I never,
in my starting process, I always tried to finish the horse no matter what and the owners would say, oh, well, we've got another 100 horses, don't worry about it, we'll just send you another one. And I'm like, no, that man's got a soft eye, I think she'll be okay, she's just really frightened, I just need one more week maybe. And that was kind of asking a lot to try and get one more week back then. And you know, and...
she ended up a really nice mare but the actual fear and in this mare was so strong and I thought yeah she's just like the other 200 Arabs that I've done of those lines or similar lines they look a bit winky but they're usually okay and their anxiety looks bigger than it is and they express it more but this mare obviously it was really big but the ones that as I said surprised me the most were more the quarter horse breeds and stuff the ones that kind of
had the bit of a square eye and they hid away a bit and they were very compliant. And then all of a sudden, now the blue chicken would do something or whatever. And then they just like explode. And it got me thinking about, you know, they're hiding away right at the start. You know, some horses and some Arabs weren't at all. They were right there all the time telling you exactly how they felt. And that was the best thing for me. Horses that said, you're doing it wrong. doing it right. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it right all the time. But then you get the horses weren't talking and then you're like, Oh, I'm doing it right. They're pretty quiet. But then.
You miss the little freezes and the hard eye here and the lack of thoughtfulness in certain things and the lack of processing ability. So as soon as they go into new environment, they shrink away into obedience. then all of a sudden they're exposed to like a hit of, actually I'm open and I'm, where am I? And I think that's taught me a lot in the early days of how much trouble you can get into if you assume your horse is quiet.
and you actually haven't got it breathing, sniffing the air, processing the environment, processing you on both sides, while it's moving, doing all these different positions. And then now when I sort of help people at starting clinics, it's like, well, you were just about to step up on that horse, but have you thought about this and have you tried this? And have you just kind of just stepped over here a little bit or got your horse to walk past you there? And then like, oh, I didn't notice that. And I say, well, you noticed that because I...
I was lucky I wasn't in hospital, but I've had a wreck from that experience. And I guess, like you said, Jack, because living and working with horses and relying on them, you sometimes get the baptism of fire, but sometimes as a clinician now was necessary. Because when someone says, what do you do? I don't say, well, this person taught me this. I go, well, I've been in that situation quite a few times. so it's been good as a teacher because it's a real life experience that if you don't think you're
you swim and but then you can help someone else stay out of hospital but then you can also help the horse feel good through the whole process. those horses that are internalizing everything and they've got that dull look and they can come across as hanging their lip and having their head low and they can come across as people confuse them as gentle but they're really shut down, dull, checked out, internalized and
The horses that are more outward with their expression and their posture, that's easy for people to see. And they know when they should get on, but those internalized horses, those are the ones that people don't always have, they get into trouble with. Yeah. Well, we just had one at a little clinic hasn't even been started and she's only been just teaching him to lead up and just so he can get on the float so we can come to a clinic. And when he came in, I said, this horse presents it, he's had.
kind of the start of bad training and he's already starting to, and she does good training with him. She's just, I know she hasn't been kind of doing a lot of just sending him on one of the circles and all that sort of stuff. But I said, wow, he's, he's got a two track mind. He goes, he either targets or he hides. I said, but he hasn't once processed even walking through this gate, what he's doing and where he is. And, and, and, and he's go to his hide or target and target as I mean,
when as soon as there's any sign of worry, he just remembers where his last safety was. And that's all the, and so I said, he's already a destinator, I call him, or a target horse that just targets safety somewhere else, but doesn't process what's making them feel bad. And so the whole clinic, and it was only three days at this clinic, was just trying to get him at Liberty and on a lead, just to stay open and search and make, you know, at least
four decisions instead of two. And it's interesting seeing them that young now, but it's great now because you can say, whoa, before you send this horse to a trainer, this is what you need to know. Cause some people are going to send their horses to trainers and those horses are the ones that come back after trainers and they're completely fried because it was missed and, then they end up with a bigger problem later that they're trying to fix. What are, so, this is a common issue.
for people having the horses, like you were saying, turtle up or they go inside and internalize. What are some things, because I'm sure there's people watching in our audience that have a horse like this. What are maybe a couple things that you see working really well for people to help them bring their horses out Okay, there's a practical sense. if I was, when people come to my clinics, they're gonna work on some connection, but...
I don't teach people to connect with their horses till they understand why their horses are broken in their mind or so if it's been bad education, I say, well, don't connect too early with your horse and make strong deep connections until you understand what's causing the trauma because you don't want to be Hansel and Gretel. You don't want to be the witch in Hansel and Gretel that sort of come into my lolly house. I'm breathing softly, connect with me and then
guided in a way that reminds it of the trauma that it had. So I'm big about education before connection in those horses because if you know and understand the education that freezes them, then you can avoid that. So when you do connect with them, you're going in with not the soft hand, the hard hand, you're going in with, so then the horse trusts you when you do more of the connection work with it where you know,
listen to it a bit more and spend some time with it, know, mutually agree with all those things that build relationship with horses. At my clinics, I'm spending more time building good understanding of what bad education has caused, what mindset the horse has and what good education can do. Because the people, when they go home and they do their connection work, basically they've got education to back up that connection. So you're not building a... Like an example of having a horse that trusts you in your pyjamas, but not in your riding clothes is a...
This is a really nice horse float trailer, horse float trailer. The front door's open. Look at no noise. Look, you just walk in, you walk out, look beautiful. Good. Now I'm going to close the front door, close the back door and I'm going to drive down some back Australian road over the potholes because we don't have as many taxpayers over here. So there's more roads with potholes and I'm going to rally it a bit. And then the horse has a traumatic experience that you've said this is not going to happen by connecting the horse with the float in a soft way and then
shaking it in a sardine box sort of thing. So basically what I'm saying to people is if you are trying to be very good friends and have good connection with your horse, you've got to sure well have good education to back it up. Otherwise don't connect. It's a waste of time. You have to follow up with the same approach, not the same approach, but as something that gets the horse into a good space. So the question that you said, you know, how do you get a horse to open up?
One thing I do, I'm going to talk about, cause I could go on hours about the connection work you can do, you know, but I'm not going to talk about that. I'm going to talk more about the educational side of it is the biggest thing that I'm asking people to do when they've got a horse that doesn't search is go into silent mode. And you remember when horsemanship sort of kind of was teaching people to pick up your energy and your life and project what you want to say to the people, lower your energy, stand still, go really quiet and give that horse a space to search.
And, and remember Tom Doran's had an old saying, and I think it may have been Tom, you guys may correct me on this was I follow you, you follow me, and then we go together. Well, I go really quiet and I pick up on a rope and I might, you know, do something until the horse goes, what's he want? What's he want to do? Maybe I'll look over there and then maybe I'll step over there and then maybe I'll come out and search. I guess the biggest thing a person can do is you go quiet and don't interrupt your horse all the time.
whatever tool you're going to use to ask it to search, pick it up. And in my case, I use the rope a lot because I've never had a horse come to a clinic without a holder on and people always got a holder on a horse or something on a horse. And I think driving pressure has taken over good quality leading and people are, you know, maybe not getting the horse to search and follow feel as well through a lead rope. So horses pull back and they've got all these other race problems. So I guess going quiet.
and creating a stimulant to get your horse to search, but not carrying it with your energy or carrying it with your body and your movement and be, you know, so. And I think the quieter and calmer person is when a horse starts to come out of their shell and search, the more room they got to process their environment and they don't have someone on you. What are you doing? Where are you going? Go over there, you know, on their back all the time. And then when they start to search and they breathe and they soak up the air, like through the, know, when a horse you've seen it, when you're talking about the, you know, the young, you see a horse open up.
And like you said with your little horse, when you went to the Lee Smith clinic and she was looking either way and you felt she was actually truly engaging. Well, you watch a horse when they're kind of shut down, they're not using their three senses as good as they should. So when a horse opens up, you'll see them taking air and it's not air cause they were going to fall over from lack of oxygen. It's processing the smell of the air and you'll see a lot of horses.
that open up, they'll go to ground because they sniff the ground and they'll smell the wee and the manure that's been in the ground and that and they go around and they process the sand and they sort of like a dog that's like on a scent and you'll see them process the air and then they'll sniff the things in their environment and they'll look and they'll listen and their ears will start to kind of go back on and if we're kind of busy and interrupting them all the time, what are they going to do? Go back into themselves again. So I guess the biggest thing is have a clear stimulant that wakes them up to come out of their shell
And then, then you've got to step back and let them, let them come out and process. And then with the horses that being kind of shut down with energy, you know, energy kind of drives them all the time and then they just focus on energy. And soon as you lower, they lower. Well, those horses I'll say, I'm to go really quiet and learn my energy to get you to search, but I'm going to pick up my energy and jog over there to touch you. And they're to go, why are you running to me? go, well, because someone told you to run away from energy. So I'm going to pick up my energy and walk over you and say, I love you.
But I'm going to lower my energy to get you to go and search. It's such a, and it's the opposite of what some people have been learning over the years, but it's quite interesting because the quieter you are when they're searching, they need that. But when you're big and you walk over to them, it means one day you can run up to them in a bushfire and they're not going to run away from you. Like, you know, you imagine all these people that had these horses that they had to rely on draw to get them to come to them in the bushfires. You'd be like, well, how can I run to you and get my neighbor to run to you with a holder without you running away? So, so yeah, with opening up horses.
Give them room to explore and search. Don't micromanage them. And it's the same with riding. How do you ride a shut down horse? Sit on it like a tourist on a beach ride and just let it search. Like pull the rein until it starts to search and follow and just sit there and just follow it until the horse is going, Jesus, this person's quiet. I've got to be a room to process my environment and let them come out and grow. And then you can come back into the conversation later on. But the main thing is the education gets them to search because...
I guess the biggest thing and you've probably seen it, those horses that over-focus on their owners, but won't look anywhere else. And those are the ones that are really stuck because they just think, what do want me to do? Like, you know, I don't know if you guys had the Flintstones. I think the Flintstones was an American car then, you know, let's get on our horse and go pedal, pedal, pedal, pedal, pedal down the road because we don't have cruise control. What's the point of riding a horse? You may as well just go and walk down the road. so many great things you just said right there, but you know, thinking about
the answer to a horse that's shut down or a horse that's maybe nervous or scared. So much of the time is bringing that horse to a place of curiosity. And that's what you're saying, letting them explore, letting them look and go over there. And the antidote to many problems with problems with horses is curiosity and letting them explore. And so many times we have people that are nervous within themselves.
And so now they take that and they try to control the horse and they're shutting it down. Do you have any tips or techniques to those types of people that are really nervous? And there's so many of them, but they're really nervous inside. Okay. Nervous inside is I know people who get very centered. They talk, they say, maybe you can't fake it till you make it cause your horse senses stuff.
I don't say that to any of my students because I don't know how many times I was nervous getting on a horse and how many times I was terrified and effective. And I think people forget that there's a lot of times we're very frightened in life and we're still effective. Same with horses. Horses can be very frightened in a herd experience, but still make clear decisions and they still got a level of fear in them. So the idea that horse senses fear and you shouldn't go around horses when you're nervous, say, well, you've never had any tough horses in your life.
Yeah. go in the real world. Like it's like saying to a soldier, are you frightened? No, no, no. She's right. I'm going to die tomorrow. I don't They're not going to say that. Like, so, so for me, like, there is a certain part of horse training that you have to fake it till you make it. What I tend to do with people though, is partly understand if they, if they understand their horses a little bit more, then they can understand why the horse does something.
And then instead of being in that the worst fear is the unknown. So I think, I think people don't know if their horse is going to run over the top of them. They don't know if it's going to buck them off. And because they don't know that they're really restricted. But if you empower people with understanding their horses a little bit more, they'll actually go, actually, my horse is not going to buck when it does that. But if it looks like that is an indicator that's going to buck, then I have a way of helping it not want to feel like it wants to buck or whatever the problem may be.
And now the horse is going, like you stepping up there and I feel good. And they can actually see the horse communicate in a positive way. Then they start to get more confidence. They can understand and read their horses a little bit better in a lot of situations. So for me, that was the only thing that gave me confidence was reading my horses better. So, so the first thing, this is not a tip. It's, it's, it's okay to be frightened.
and someone can help you read your horse a bit better if you can't quite read it. The next thing is don't do what you're not ready to do, but do something that you can make a change. So, I think people kind of, they think so far ahead that they've got this plan that they're going to get on their horse. And I remember a mate of mine years ago, he did a fair bit of bull riding. He got to the PBR level when Australia linked with it, but he ended up getting busted up on a practice bull, so never quite made the circuit in America, but...
I helped him with some thoroughbreds one time and he said, Jesus, you know, he had to go into my world a bit, which was I'm getting on this young thoroughbred and I'm really frightened. I don't know what it's going to do. And I said, don't you get on bulls all the time? He said, yeah, but I what it's going to do. And I've got all these people around me and you're full of adrenaline and you're going to buck it out. He said, this horse is standing quietly and I'm going to sit on it and I don't know what it's going to do. It could just walk. It could just sort of, you know, run off. And I said, well, don't think that far ahead.
your foot in the stirrup and see how it feels and maybe get it to take a step and see how it feels and then when the horse softens and you feel soft and it's softened well you know you put your foot in the stirrup you put your foot in the stirrup and you survive that near-death experience and you're here to tell the story don't think about sitting on it so like someone who's leading their horse and then what if I walk down there my horse runs me over I say well you're here at the moment so maybe
give your horse, teach your horse a bit of awareness about your space until your horse is very good at understanding your space and it's soft about your space. It's still aware of its space. It's aware of your space. It's still aware of where it is and do that for the next half hour. Don't even worry about the laneway. You know, like I thought I got to go down there and I'm saying, yeah, but if I used to think like that, then I would have got on my horse in the round yard one minute and be ready to open gate the next and it was only his first ride. I said, you know, you're leading an uneducated horse.
And then down that laneway and they were well, it's, it's, it's educated goes down the laneway every day. I said, yeah, but it's not educated because it's still pulling on the lead. still running through your space. It's still anxious every time it goes somewhere. So go somewhere safe and do something that you can do. That's very simple. And, and then when you do that thing very well, you'll go, I don't even have to think about that. I'm not even worried about that. And then you go, well, let's try something else. And I think it's finding a foundation. The person can achieve.
that's effective, that still has the end result of maybe what the person's really scared of. And also trying to figure out how the horse feels and how to understand them more so you can read situations better. Like you said before, the horses that tell you what's happening, you know they're gonna buck you off and the ones that aren't, you're gonna get bucked off if you can't read them. Not communicating is a problem. But I think with people, it's give yourself a task.
that you can achieve, make it simple. what I say, it's like range as apprentice. Don't do something till you get it right. Do it till you can't get it wrong. Like, and it could be any little task like it's like working a mule or a halfling or something like that. It's the same as working a person is if you pick up on a rope and that mule starts to shut out and say, I'm to lock out, you're going to do something to me. Well, you pick up on the rope and you just say, if you can stand up and wake up when I pick up the rope,
And we do that for three days. At least you've mastered the art of waking up to a feel. And then when you're waking up to a feel and I might direct you, but if you try and wake it up, direct it and do three things, then a day later, the mule goes, shut it down, stumpy. that's the as the person give them three jobs and it overwhelms would be given one simple job. And I think everyone goes out there and I think if I give them advice, it'd be just. Just pick one thing that's simple.
before you get to the other stuff and just see if you can master it quietly. And it could be just standing still and having your horse standing present at a bit of a distance and just do that. Don't worry about anything else. And then when you don't have to worry about it, then you can teach them the next thing. I think that's excellent advice. if you can get 1 % every day and 100 days, you're 100%. Right? So, so just little bits and get
good and successful at those little bits and that's, I think people feel the Say you're 100 increments better, you're 100 increments better, but you're not 100%. Yeah, but mean, 100 increments better. Yeah. Towards the end, towards the end task, suppose. But yeah, no, it's, and I think, yeah, like life, we've got too much on our plate and sometimes the old simple blokemanship, one thing at a time is actually sometimes the best thing.
leaving leaving something with the feeling of success that the horse feels successful and we feel successful and then we're building on that. So just good, good, positive experiences build a relationship. Right. And that's where it comes from is the experiences that we have with each other or with our horses. And it goes it reciprocates the other way around from the horse to the human. But you brought you brought up so many good points. And the other thing I'd like to bring attention to is your
bringing that person back into present state of awareness because they're thinking about what if, well, what if is the future? And there's people that are thinking about what happened yesterday. Well, that's not today either. And that's right. That's the past or the future. Yeah. Not the, not the moment. And you seem like you just naturally kind of fall into the moment. I really appreciate how you explain that. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is, that's why my wife, Jenny,
where it has to work so hard because she has to manage a person who kind of rolls with the flow each day. it's kind of, it's a bit tough. So as a clinician, it's worked out really good. As long as I don't drive five hours in the wrong direction and check my calendar and go, holy cow, I've to turn around. But which has nearly happened before. But anyway, but it works for me because it keeps me like, well, this is what we're going to do now. And this is now not then. So, and it's helped me as a teacher also manage the people.
who are like, cause as in this world, we've got a lot of people who, who work with horses, who, who are high powered CEOs of companies that have got to, that, know, they don't even get time to sleep probably without thinking about something and their horse is supposed to be their downtime. But you can, you can see because they're so geared to have everything working properly and put their, all their ducks in a row. You know, I remember one lady, walked in and she had this, had, she, walked in with this nice kind of
March and the horse was this little chestnut mare who had a March the same and then the next clinic I saw her she moseyed into the clinic and she didn't realize now but she walks a lot slower than she used to but it was just you know I could see like you know right I've got to get this done this done and this done and I'm like well let's look at the red flag first and then see where we can go after that and it's like you know because and I think people that you know maybe we were meant to be as busy as we are but sometimes I think we've actually over complicated our lives a little bit.
and throughout the conversation, you've been talking to ideas about softness and, and I know your presentations in the fair, you are talking to that very trait, getting softness from our horses. Can you talk a little bit about the presentations that you're, you're giving and kind of give people a sneak peek of what they might expect?
I think one of the presentations, and Jenny chose this one because it's very hard because I've got a lot of videos that come from clinic footage that I'm like, oh, that's a certain take in a thing. But this was a horse that I did an assessment on. So it's like every day when I do a clinic, the first lesson, I'm doing an assessment with a horse and saying, right, this is what I'm seeing and feeling. And this is where there's brace. This is where there's anxiety. This is how the horse I think's been trained. Because you can tell when you step here. So there's a horse that I'm working and
It's got all the clear signs of freeze, just moving around in a circle away from pressure, not searching, not processing, all that sort of stuff. So it's basically a half an hour or sort of 20 something, 25 minute assessment of a horse. And then in our assessment, I'm saying, I believe this is the way it sees and understands pressure through the way pressure has been taught to it initially. This is what I'm gonna start to sort of work on to help the horse feel better about.
doing similar things that it was taught to do, but doing it in a more emotionally engaged way that the horse is actually thinking about what it's doing. So basically it's improving the leading, unfreezing the horse, you know, just goes through a lot of good ideas on if you've got a horse. And the horse that I chose was a common sort of fits the common horse that comes with. I'm a young horse, it seems quite obedient, but I'm actually carrying more trouble in me than people would recognize, maybe too.
And I think that in itself is just a really good one for people to look and just look at some different ideas maybe. also, I guess the other thing in my teachings, and I don't want to offend people when I teach, but I'm not shiny thing, shiny thing, know, hey, try this. I actually try and talk about the pros and cons of education, which I think is a bit necessary because when I first started doing clinics, people come on board and they go, what new trick can you show me? And I'm like, God, you weren't prepared for me to tip out your toolbox, were you? And that's really tough. So,
So, you know, basically what, what you guys will be showing you some of the sort of important things we've got to do. But in the long term, when people look deeper into it, they're going to look at and not the shiny things that they want to add to their toolbox. It's, what, what's in my toolbox that I can either change a little, not completely always throw away, but that would improve my horse. And sometimes going back to the foundation and working out how you apply your tools can sometimes be a bit hard for people because it's something that they might've done for 20 years.
So I think when people watch my training, also they've got to be prepared that sometimes I'm saying, you know, I might say driving pressure and they might go, oh, he doesn't like driving pressure. And I go, well, it's just that here's an alternative to it. It's something else to think about. And they've also got to be a bit prepared for that. And then your second presentation is help with picking up the feet. So basically,
Picking up the feet and flow, you know, you've seen horses in a state of freeze and a lot of times when you pick up the feet, the things I'm trying to address in picking up the feet is one, can the horse process us softly in all parts of the eye? From behind it to in front of it. Now, as you know, lot of nervous horses, it's the same as the old saying is where do you keep your friends close? Where do you keep your enemies closer? So the horse that doesn't like you down its sides, wants you in the front of its eyes where it can see you.
in the front vision of its eyes. It doesn't like to process you when you're back behind it like that, though horses can process what's behind them. So I think understanding that, but understanding that not only does the horse have to process you down its sides, it has to be in a state of flow when you pick up feet and things like that. So basically a lot of people think, my horse got to stand still when I pick up its feet. And I'm saying, yeah, but a horse is in a leading frame of mind when you pick up the feet, because it's got to lead the feet up. So the horse has to be in a ready, loose state of...
flow mentally and physically. it's a lot about, you know, leading. So when I work horses nowadays, I'm the one that needs to do exercise at the end of the day, because I stand there and get the horses to move softly around me, not me move around them all the time. So they are always in a state of flow. So there's not one part of their body that I haven't seen in movement, trusting me, close to me. Like when you pick up the feet or when you're on a mountain block or whatever.
The horse has to be in a state of flow without any evasion, any, any worry, anything like that. And I think all my feet picking up ideas come through keeping a horse in a state of flow and identifying race. And when the horse has worry down the back of its eyes. then once that's addressed, you'll find the feet picking up not much of an issue. There's might be a few other little leading lessons you can do through the handle through a road, they're just kind of like the things that you would do once you've done all that other stuff and everything's all about leading.
I like how you're helping with that connection between a horse that's turning loose and flowing and willing to move, because then it's going to give you its feet because it's available, balanced mentally and physically. It's balanced to give you its feet. And so you're right. So much of the time people think I'm going to have my horse stand still or even worse, it's tied. And then they go to pick up its feet and the horse goes, I can just stand here for a long time. This is a good place to sit. And then I lean on a foot. Yeah. So I love that. It's great. What a great video.
that you're doing. And then I see that you have another one, is, is it help with girthiness? Yes. So same thing, get your horse in a state of flow. So basically there's two roads you can go with girthing horses. know, I have some people that have had really sour horses and, you know, biting all that with girthiness and they've, what they've done is they've listened to their horse and every time the horse shows them first sign of tension, they wait till the horse softens and then they back off.
and they've done 12 months of that. And I say, your horse is still girthy, isn't it? And they said, yeah, well, I've made marginal gain. I said, 12 months of marginal gain is a long time to have a horse not improving in the sense of trusting just a girth and you ride it. Okay, so basically girthiness is something when a horse can control the pressure, then it can control the emotion around pressure. So basically, when it comes to following a feel, you pick up a feel on a horse, you can control the direction of feel, but the horse controls the amount of pressure.
that's put on them. And as a horse kind of tightens up and they step back into a girth or whatever they move, then you're adding more pressure there as they're controlling and making more pressure. But when they sort of search and loosen a bit, then that pressure releases a little bit. And then when they step a little bit. So basically to me, girthing is another leading process. So you teach a horse to lead through a belly rope and control the pressure. And then all of a sudden, once they can move, process the pressure. Because remember how horses control problems out in the wild, they move.
A a frozen horse has taken, or a shut down horse, all it's had is the right to act on its thoughts taken off it. And what gives a horse the right, the access to act on its thoughts is movement. And if you take movement off horses too often, then you're taking the idea that they can do something off them, so they stop searching. It's like, okay, and you probably know people who've had bad accidents become, they're suddenly in a wheelchair.
and they're in the doldrums because they wanted to do, they wanted to go rock climbing and then they wanted to do some skydiving and then they wanted to go on a long walk and go camping, but they can't because their legs have been taken off them and horses are much the same. take the, know, sometimes we say a horse shuts down because it's pressure and I say pressure doesn't shut horses down. I've got a pet saber tooth tiger that I bring to clinics and I just lead it past all the shut down horses and one at a time they just go boing, boing, boing, boing, boing. And I said, see pressure opens them up. I said, it's just.
It's just pressure that's been applied in a way that's taken the horses right to act on their thoughts off of them. That's the only pressure that shuts horses down, not the amount of pressure. Otherwise horses wouldn't jump in flooded rivers and get to the other side and go through immense amount of pressure. Even in herd conflict and stuff like that, they go and they're designed to go up and down and be in a constant state of flow of up and down in terms of their anxiety levels and safety levels. But it's...
It's when they're in an anxious state and they can't do anything about it. So back to the girthiness, angry horses, defensive horses have been told to stand still and be girthed up. And then all of a sudden, because you've taken that mental state and physical state of flow out of them, they can't control the pressure. So then the next question someone has is, so now I've taught my horse to lead with a belly rape every time I saddle it, it walks off and I'm well...
The horses are very intelligent and they can control the meaning behind the feel. So if you push it forward, feel or walk forward. But if you just girth it and you rub on it and girth it and say, I'm girthing now, it goes, I can stand for that one. Can I? Yep. You sure can. And they can very distinctly know the difference. Yeah. They can follow our intention and they can, and yes, know our intention. Yeah. What I really like about your, girthing points is if somebody gets a horse to shut down and stand and brace on all fours girthing,
What are the things going to happen when they climb up in the saddle and wrap their legs around it? And right. by getting that horse flowing and moving forward and able to understand the difference between stopping and moving, that's going to translate to better willing movement when you get in the saddle. Well, for sure. And how many horses that I've seen get, get taught as young horses or people get taught that they need spurs on them. And I say, but look how your horse shuts down. said, how much pressure goes on its ribs when you girth it. And they're like,
Well, you know, you've seen people really crank a girth, especially roping horse or something. They got that good type. And I say, well, if that, if that horse can, has been taught to block out that much pressure around its rib cage, your legs aren't going to do anything. It's so, so that's why people are nearly sometimes feel that they're forced to wear spurs is because the saddling process has shut down the rib cage, the communication, the rib cage, the brain. And then, so then we've got to get spurs on them. And I'm like, well, if you don't shut down the. â
the from the rib cage to the brain, you won't have to go and hit them with a bigger tool because you've shut them down in the girthing process. And saddling is a very distinct shutting down process if we're not careful. And if we keep it an open flowing process, the horses will still know when it's time to stand and when it's time to move, they'll be engaging in the conversation the whole time. Yeah. And then another one of your presentations is the softness in the bridle. And you tend to go with
out a bit in the mouth. So you're doing a lot of this in, is it a bitless bridle or a side pull? And yeah, I tend to use a side pull because, â and I still use bits and stuff. It's just that there's, you, there's a crossroad I got to, and it was, I was starting to flex my horses and use my legs to bend, ride them into a bend. And I was kind of like changing the rules.
And I teach my young horses to lead really well, where it'd be a foal on a neck rope. And then I get on them and say, now you're bending and I'm pushing you into a bend. I've gone back to leading a horse under saddle, not just pushing it into a bend. And going back there, you learn the original rain positions that they had in dressage, the old rain positions that activated the whole horse, not just got him to bend in front and then your legs did everything else.
Now in that style of riding or the style I ride to get a horse to truly balance in a rain. So when you lift up a left rain, you can feel that hind foot step underneath nice, sorry, a left indirect rain that's more targeted at the hind collar. By the way, the angle of the rain is you can feel a horse, feel the angle of the rain, softly think into the bend and then step up underneath because they've been taught to balance in the rain, not just bend their head and you'll kick them over. So to ride like that, I realised that
The process of finding balance can't involve pain and clanging and crashing because they're actually trying to find their balance. It's almost like if I took your hand and twisted your wrist in a way that made you roll your pelvis like a dance movement. If you just stood there and braced your hind feet, you'd get a sore arm because I'd twist your arm and a horse would be the same. So if I had a bit in their mouth, be going, oh, I've got a lot to do. So now I have something that I can hold pressure
without pain, but keep them in, I guess, a out of balance feeling until they wriggle a bit and then they find their balance. But if they're wriggling in a bit and they use their hindquarter to push into their mouth, they can get a lot of pain on their mouth because they're pushing. So to be able to hold a horse in a bit of a bind in a comfortable tool that doesn't create pain, you can still create friction and the idea of search. But if you get pain, you'll get the, got a
hop out of their kind of feeling in your horses. So I found when a horse is out of balance, get, it's a lot more effective to have a side pull that doesn't hurt them. And then you get to their hind feet more, was when you have a thinner, know, more notch in the holder, more kind of thin contact on a horse, they tend to want to give in their head to get away from it, but you haven't accessed their hind feet. So they get bendy in the head and neck, but their feet are still stuck out the back like an Alsatian or a German Shepherd.
And I think if a horse can wriggle into their nose a bit and go, I'm out of balance, then readjust their hind quarter a little bit and then suddenly get a little bit of balance through their whole body, then the softness has got right through the feet to the ground, not just into the head. If that makes sense to you guys, that's why I've chosen to use a side pull or something more than something that creates â a thinner sort of feeling on them. And you can be firmer without pain.
And sometimes some horses, you know, there's horses that have lent all their life. Sometimes you've got to be firm and clear without, without sort of making their eyes water sort of thing. So you might have to say you can't push and you might get that like that. And they might go, Oh, I can't push, but they're not going, Oh, that's hurting. And I'm frightened. And it's, and it's a great bridge from the work that you're doing on the ground to in the saddle, because it's very similar. The feet, feel it's not completely different. Now all of sudden it's in their mouth.
You're still working off the same, same, same subject. Like I teach them foals now. Now I understand more about it all. I teach my foals now to lead better in the sense that they're going to be riding horse one day and everything connects all the way through. And it just makes them so easy in the horse horse float horse trailer, because you can put a little twist in them and they just roll that hip over into place. You're not pushing them around all the time or having to shove them because they've got all this brace in their head and
and spending a bit more time and you guys, you know, said when you're young, you watch, you know, Harry Whitney work. Well, the one clear thing you saw in him is you might just hold underneath the chin of a horse and you can get him to pick up a hind foot just through wiggling the knot a bit or doing something like that because the horse is completely connected from nose to toes. Right on. Well, that is so cool. I sure appreciate your sort of your realness, bringing a realness back to
working with horses and you're fair and you're soft. But there's still the aspect of we do need to, you know, the horse does need to understand. And I really appreciate that. And you're definitely the real deal because you grew up with it and you've lived it and breathed it your whole life. we sure appreciate you being in the fair and letting us have you. And we appreciate all your time today that you spent with us.
thank you very much for being here. And where can people find more information about you? Basically, they just go on our website, marklangley.com. You you've got access. You know, like everyone in the future now, it was really tough for me to put online videos up in case I misinterpreted. I was really scared of that. But I've realized that â
I've got to show people some alternative to some things so they can, and so there is an online subscription that we do, which has got a lot of different scenarios at clinics and different things that basically go through a lot of stuff that we've talked about and ideas. that's just going through the marklangley.com.au website. You'll learn everything's on that.
clinics, you know, all the clinic schedules for people ever interested in trying to get onto a clinic or even to fence it. Like I'm coming to the States again this year and I'm going to do a run through there. So anyone over in the States that interested, if they can't get the clinics are filling up pretty quick. So if they can't get on, come and fence it and watch, you know, get a real feel of it. And then sometimes like that, you know, when they watch the videos at all, you know, makes a lot of sense, but there's a lot of videos up there. It's an easy, cheap subscription that sort of it's you can go on. didn't want to charge a lot of money because I wanted
give people access to something to help horses. it's, yeah, got that sort of stuff. And there's also question and answers that we do every fortnight that, you know, people just put their questions up. People can upload a video through subscription and I'll do a talk over on it. And that's part of the subscription price that you get with your monthly subscription. As long as you're brave enough to put your videos that other people can watch it. You get that for free, that service. And I'll just send a 10 minute video through, I'll do a talk over on it. You know, what I think's going wrong and right.
Yeah, but that's it's all it's all online as you know now I'm a bit of a took me a while even to set up this just to zoom but but my wife Jenny she's very good at understanding the other side of things that I don't understand. same same here. I think we have some similarities there and I'm outside starting horses by myself to allow the time to know how that goes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But thank goodness. No, but now I really appreciate you. You allow me on board.
very passionate about what I do and it's nice to be able to share it and know that I never thought that there'd be a message that with all the horsemanship out there, I never thought there'd be a message that it's sort of, you know, go and start to help so many people. You know, I thought it was already done, but. Yeah, I think people are always looking and learning and, I think for anybody, we've all experienced this where there's something that you've been taught over and over, but it just hasn't been said in the right way or demonstrated in the right way.
And then you see it through somebody else explaining it differently or doing it slightly differently. And you have that aha moment and it's the thing that changes everything. And so, yeah, and you're such a good fit for our audience because you put the first, the horse first and you really care. that's the sorts of training that we want to promote out there. And I think a little message for everybody.
which I think is an important message. whoever the forefathers of horsemanship may have been, you guys would have heard and we have over here that, know, Tom Dorrance was very influential in his wisdom and his message that he was trying to send out. And I get people like, you know, to avoid Chinese whispers and try and sort of parrot what someone else did. And this was horsemanship. What I say to people is say,
Don't look at what Tom was doing. Look at where he was looking, you know, there's, and there's a whole other bunch of things in life that we can look the same thing as like, you know, maybe the book you guys have ever read it before. Jonathan Livingston Seagull. It's just a more of a kid's book, but it's got a message in there and it's sort of, I could imagine. Yeah, it's a good read. It's just very simple, my type of book. Yeah. And you know, we really do look at horsemanship as like an art form and you know, we might.
It's like we want to paint a picture of a horse and your picture might look different than my picture, but they both can be beautiful. And this is exactly why featuring just different people and having a mix of people, a mix of disciplines, which it's all the same thing anyway. It's just costume, but having a mix. I feel that's so important so that people understand.
They can do it their way. But like you said, they've maybe seeing it more through the way you would see it. be. Yeah. It's, it's, it's taken an idea and then sort of working it and figuring it out yourself a little bit. And I think I think someone like Tom Jones was encouraged people to do that. But, but, but yeah, and try to look where he was looking. Cause if he was alive to now, he would have been doing things a bit differently than he was because he was always looking ahead and trying to work out. was the, it was the, foresight in what he was doing, not necessarily. This is the way you do it.
That's a great point to end it on. But yeah, well, thank you so much today, Mark. It was so good to have you. pleasure. Yeah, no, thanks. Thanks so much, Jack, Paula. I really appreciate you both having me on board and excited to be able to help out.
