Paula Curtis (00:42)
Today we've got David Lichtman and he is here and has been a part of our fair for six years now. Wasn't there for the first year, but he's been instrumental in being a little bit of a helper behind the scenes because he's done some catching some things that I might miss when I'm putting together the fair and whatnot. So I'm so appreciative to David for both his participation and his
help in really making the fair successful. And he's known very much for his Liberty training and is a five-star master Pirelli professional who specializes in helping riders develop deep distraction-proof connections with their horses. His performances, courses, and coaching have inspired equestrians worldwide to take Liberty work beyond the round pen. So I hope you are all ready for an incredible discussion and connection and training and David, welcome. We're so glad to have you here.
Thanks for having me. love being part of this fair. And I have to say this almost 30 years ago, I went to, had a clinic with you and I mean, I was a teenager at that point and I remember so much of your clinic, your presentation, the vibe. I took away so much from it and I just want to thank you for that. And you were, you treated me like, like, like another horse horse person. weren't, you know, you didn't look at me like a teenager.
And you didn't look down on me at all. And I just want to say that it was, it was a really great clinic. It was in Cedarburg, Wisconsin, and you probably don't remember, but I do. And I just want to thank you for, for that. And I'll always remember it. You're welcome. That's a surprise to me. I didn't know that. for sure. I remember going to Wisconsin a lot. John Harms was up there and- Yes. Yes. Up and down. Yeah. I did a test and you were testing me out of a level, I don't know if it level one or two, but- ⁓
it was just, it was great and I'll always remember it. thank you. I'm glad it worked out. you. So tell us how it going back in the year day, how did it start with, with you, with your horsemanship journey? boy. Well, my earliest memories were probably older than your audience. we're a lone ranger television, Ohio silver and seeing that.
that white horse on top of the rock rearing. I just, you know, every birthday I got a little cowboy hat and guns and I got a rocking horse to ride when I was three. It was in me, but not so much access to real horses. I lived outside of Boston and didn't really have much access. But every chance that we get, you know, I'd get my parents to take me on a pony ride or a trail ride or to petting zoo, anything. And in fact, when I was in junior high school, they had a
career thing we had to do, choose a career. And I went looking through my horse books and I found horse breeder in the junior high school. I thought it was going to be too specific about breeding horses, but no, was just generally, you know, how to be, how to make a living doing breeding horses, but it never really came to fruition. did in junior high school, find a stable near the school and I would ride my bike over there and clean stalls to get riding lessons when the weather permitted.
And then not much, I went to a horse riding camp for two weeks once. went and worked at a dude ranch in New Hampshire for a few weeks. And in college, I found out that I could substitute horseback riding for PE. Which I was not a big PE fan. And so I drove up to Gloucester and took riding lessons and they wanted me to jump and they wanted me to ride without stirrups. And I couldn't walk for a week after I went up there. But in general, my path to
You know, took me in another direction. went into music and I moved to California and then I got into computer science, 70 degree computer science. And I was, I had horses, you know, by the time I got to doing that work, I had enough money to have some horses of my own and we were showing horses and having fun. And one day I was sitting there looking at the terminal and you know, really looking at the picture of the horse on the wall behind. I said, I just can't sit here at this terminal anymore. So off I went to try to make a living.
doing horses and it wasn't long after I won a world grand championship in Tennessee. pleasure with a pleasure horse. then, it wasn't long after that, that, I, forgot where I was going. yeah. It wasn't long after that, that I saw Ray Hunt. So I would go to the California state fair, which is 15 minutes from here. It's huge.
And Ray Hunt every day at four o'clock in the afternoon would start a new cold. And I watched this guy with, you know, my jaw dropped. ⁓ You know, he's sitting there predicting everything the horse is going to do. And you'd say, you know, now pretty quick here, he's going to just going to lift that left hind leg and you know, what? And then in 10 minutes he had the horse following him around like a puppy. And in 30 minutes he was riding the horse and every day for 18 days of the fair, start a new cold.
And by about the third day, he would use the colt from the first day to start the sequence. He was so amazing. so, you know, I went home and I tried to do these things, Liberty, and tried to make connection with the horse and just, you know, struggling my own way. And then the following year, Pat Farrelly came and he was doing the same kind of a colt starting in California in August. It's 104 degrees, glazing sun, starting colts, not an easy deal for Pat, but
I was, he had something that I could step through and walk through and, uh, and, and learn more details about not so much about as much about horses as, as it was also about people and how to teach people. So that was, that was a big change for me. And when I applied to be an instructor with Pat, I sent in an audition tape, which was me giving a demo at the state fair. And, uh, he heard the announcer's voice and he said, it just gave him chills because he remembered all those days.
hundred and four degrees starting colds every day. But that's what started my journey. And, ⁓ you know, from there, I have learned so much from so many others following in, but, you know, I was the beginning to Rayhaunt and Pat Perrelli. And, and I think we all get that first couple instructors that, that give us a different perspective. And, and now all of a sudden the view changes.
And we see so much possibility and potential. then, and it sounds like from there, you probably just want an exploration journey, right? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I'm still licensed to teach early and I haven't traveled since COVID, but I have traveled all over the world of millions of miles of travel and thousands of students all over the world. know, be honest with I learn as much from my students as I do from.
my mentors and colleagues, uh, you know, they always present something that I haven't seen. And then also sometimes amazing perspectives that I didn't have before. know, just turn the light on. But the main influences following Pirelli was there was a gal by the name of Casey Kover. She was, to be a animal trainer at the Washington national zoo. She was trying to figure out, she created a little
thing called Cinalia training, and she was teaching about bridging target training. And she was trying to find a way to make a living doing that. And during that time there were this pot bellied pig boom and everybody was buying a pot bellied pig and they didn't know how to train them. So she was going around giving clinics for these pot bellied pig owners and I happened to be at one here in California. And then she told me.
You should come down to Monterey because we're doing a horse one. And when I went down to it's Moss Landing, actually, when I went down there, I met her cohost for that event. was Jennifer Zelligs and she had a population of sea lions and she has a PhD in animal behavior. And so when Casey left back for Virginia, I started a relationship with Jennifer, Dr. Jennifer, and I...
I learned so much about animal behavior and about positive reinforcement training and about putting the relationship first and having a great relationship bank account, be thinking about, always thinking about what can I do for the horse so that when I need something from him, he's a willing partner. And this positive reinforcement from Casey through, through Dr. Zellig helped me to find horses that became super learners. Okay. So normally they're
Not only are they interested in learning, but they know how to learn. So if you're trying to present something to them, they don't get frustrated. say, I know there's an answer here somewhere and they just search harder. So this is a remarkable thing. And what I ran into following that was two classes of people, the people who would say, we never use treats and training or training horses. And the other one is that we only use.
It's found this little niche in the middle that says, look, you know, these horsemanship principles have been around for thousands of years and they work. And when you're using negative reinforcement, if you have a good attitude, a positive attitude, and you have tact in your use of aversive stimuli, the horses don't resent it. And now you have the best of both worlds. So the combination of the two for me creates this relationship with the horse that's way above either.
And I've known people that have done either and done really well. You know, a classic example is Buck Brenneman. He's amazing. Right. And, but he is quoted as saying, whoever thought it was a good idea to train horses with treats was an idiot. And I've met Buck and I wrote in his class and we had, you know, we had fun, but I, you know, I think, you know, I may never get as good as he is, but I think he could be better if he was using. I had years ago, I was.
kind of galloping on a horse and it slipped. It fell on me and I broke my leg and my ankle. And I had this younger horse, I don't know how old Felix was, maybe three or four. And I needed to sort of prove to myself that I could still do the things that I would normally do when I had a good leg. But I had these bigger pastures and I had either crutches. I did a lot of work with crutches and like using crutches like a flag or...
an eye walk, which is sort of something that I would kneel on and when I could walk along, but I couldn't run around the pasture. So I would come in and I would bring some grain and he would come up to me and he would eat and I would take the crutches and I was sort of flagon with the crutches and just be there with him. And I'd pick up all of his legs and I would work on them. And pretty soon he wanted to be with me. He didn't see me so much as work.
And then I'd bring them in the barn and we used to have these big square bales stacked up and it was real nice hay in Wisconsin. It's real nice hay. And I would stand up on one of the square bales and I would have him present his shoulder and the saddle and move the hindquarters, all the exercises that we would do. But I'd let him stop, settle, present his back and he could eat the bales. And I would sit on them and I kneel on them and I started them. I didn't move them anywhere, but I sat on them with my I walk sticking, sticking out.
My point to that is, is before that I was really stubborn to use food. I was that that's like, you shouldn't have to do that. That's, that's cheating or that's, that's for people that don't know what they're doing. But then one day I found myself in a situation where I needed it and it worked. It worked really good. And I was able to every day go out, get them, work with them, have short and sweet sessions. And he's like, I like you, Jack. You're not so bad. You're not so much like work after all. So you don't have a place for it.
Yeah. I really think that it's, it's, it's, it's a, uh, you know, when you say I needed it, think everybody needs it. They just don't know. the, hardest people to convince, to be honest with you are the ones who say, I, I, know, I see that it works and they're, you know, they're doing great, but he's, he's doing it for the treats. He's not doing it because he loves you. And you, I want, I want to leave the treats out of it until I can get him to love me. And it's just, the food is, is, uh, it.
is nurturing and nurturing is loving. And it's like, why would you deny something? Because you're too stubborn. You want the horse to somehow miraculously love you just because you're you. know, Dr. Zellig's will oftentimes say, if that's what you want, you should get a dog because the dog, the dog will love you from the minute you step in. So this having to prove to the horse that you are not only non-threatening, which is the first step because we don't look so safe when they first meet us. And then to
present yourself in a way that, that, you he enjoys being with you and he looks forward to seeing you and they show up at the fence, you know, like you said, you didn't have to traipse out with watches to him. Big pasture to find him there and they come. And I think, I think one of the reasons it gets a bad rap is people that don't know how to use treats properly.
can create and you did ⁓ a presentation in one of our previous fairs of how to use them properly so you're not creating a cookie monster of your horse. Can you touch, I think that's really useful information. And if you can touch on some of that, I think that'd be great for the viewers to hear. Well, it takes discipline and ⁓ I frankly am not the best example for others. I know how to do it and I do it to my level of satisfaction, but I'm pretty lax.
You know, the people that I have seen that can really make a thing out of it. can be very, very safe and very, very clean and no pushiness and no grabbing for treats and all that stuff and still work great. So you can define your own. But most people aren't strict enough to say that, you know, the fastest path to the treat is through the behavior. It's not through your trying to grab it or push on me or beg for treats or, you know,
doing behaviors to try to earn a treat that I didn't, behaviors I didn't ask for. All these things are quite common. But even when they're a little bit pushy, it's not, doesn't, I don't see it usually as dangerous. It's just, you know, some people find it more annoying than others. I totally support this idea that you can define what's acceptable behavior around food and what is not acceptable behavior around food. You what I usually say is you want to give them food. You want to give them all this love and attention.
And it's the same as if you're making a big Thanksgiving dinner, right? You want people to enjoy the food and you want as much as you can possibly cook. want them to have, but when you open the kitchen door and come in, you don't want them tackling you, throwing the turkey on the floor and ripping the legs off. So there has to be some kind of an agreement about what's acceptable behavior. And you can define that. Some horses more challenging than others. And we have ways to teach that. Projected contact is a great way. You do it from the other side of the fence. And when they stop.
all the annoying behaviors, you can tell them they did a great job and pay them, you know, kind pay them for doing nothing. That's, that's a hard thing for a horse to do is nothing. So when you can reinforce they're doing nothing and not, not pushing on you. is really. You know, the mindset that the horse is in at the point or at the time that you give them the treat or the relief. some people would let a horse settle. Some people would let a horse have release or relief and let them stand.
Whatever mindset they're in in that moment, you're going to get more of that. So if your horse is snarly and crotchety and you're popping treats in their mouth, you're going to get more of that. But if they step back and they lower their head and they look at you, or they look at you with curiosity and life and their ears are forward, and you step up to them, what mindset are they in when we reward them? That's what matters. That's what matters, I think, with food or the timing of our reward, if you want to call it that.
Yeah, timing is critical in every type of training, but in this instance, the brilliant part about bridge and target training is we, the treat is not the, promise to the horse that he has earned, a reinforcer, the word that we attached to the treat is, so we can deliver that. And then we can wait and give him the treat when he's Mustang mad, he calls it treat accepting position or something, a treat accepting behavior that he's just, you know, he settles back and waits for you to bring him this treat.
The hardest part is when you have kids because the horse, let's take a couple of steps back, the horses, you know, this is a respect issue that they respect you and they're going to wait for you to give treats. But each person that interacts with these horses has to, you know, also adopt these rules or they will, they will, even your horse won't do it to you, but he will do it to somebody else that comes along with a carrot in their hand.
You have to kind of establish that this is a guideline for everyone that interacts with your horse, but the kids have, you know, they have trouble with that. Sometimes they're small or they're excited. So usually with kids, we give them a feed pan on the ground and we toss, have them toss the cookies into the feed pan. And then the horses stand by the feed pan and they don't interact with the kids so much. clears it up. That clears it up for the horse a lot. And there, you know, there's a thought process there that they know there's a pan with food or a treat.
But if they earn it, and that's always say, I want my horse to earn that. So if they do a few moves for me, they're thinking past, they're thinking present and future. They know it's there, but they need to respond to me and then they do, and then they get the reward. So really, I think their thought process becomes greater. Yes, much, much more. This is the ABCs of animal training, which I also did a
presentation for you on is the antecedent behavior and consequence. So the antecedent is you asking for behavior. The behavior is what they do and the consequences either reinforcing, which means they get a, you get a treat and they're more like, if it's reinforced, they're more likely to do it again. And this is where we build enthusiasm and motivation in horses. Motivation for me, it takes on a new level. So you could say he's motivated to jump the jump. I point him at the jump, he jumps the jump.
But the level of motivation I'm after is the one that says, can we do it again? And they line up at the jump, you know, that's a whole different level that, that most people that are not using positive reinforcement are missing out on that. They get cooperative horses and gentle horses and willing horses, but this extra level of enthusiasm, I think it really helps to use a food as motivator. I love that, that,
extra little piece where they're really actively participating in the process and they are wanting to do whatever the next thing is for you. they're really thinking ahead. They're really thinking ahead. Instead of just trying to avoid, you know, for some people, all a horse is ever trying to do is avoid discomfort. I'm not saying that's good. That's how a lot of people operate with their horse. This way, the horse goes, I want to jump that again. Let's go. exactly.
I had had a horse as a, as a kid that, or not as a kid, I was probably late teens, early twenties, but he was a draft cross and was food motivated. And we had done some, some of that with him, you know, some positive reinforcement, but he was one who could point at jumps until they go jump and he'd go do it. Well, one time I went to turn them out in a, in a arena and, and I hadn't, I hadn't established enough clarity in my training.
And there were jumps set up at like five foot and, and he was a warm blood cross. but he had, he had draft in him and he goes running up to one of these jumps after I turned him on him. And he stopped and then he ended up jumping the jump and actually cleared it other than taking the top rail. And I was like, oh wow. Okay. So it's, powerful, but it's also there. There's also a piece where there's gotta be that,
clarity, where the horse is understanding when you actually want the behavior and when not. the enthusiasm is wonderful, but there's also, and I'm sure you teach that, but there's the boundaries again around. Well, what we suggest is that you take the attitude of no thanks, but thanks for offering. Right? Because we want to encourage them to be thinking about, so there's a difference between anticipation and assumption.
And I think that's where you're, where you're, ⁓ you're lining out here is, I want them to anticipate be thinking what's next. Are we going to do this jump? Are we doing that jump? But the assumption would be I'll take the jump. Was that the one? So we try to shut down the assumptions unless you're in the middle of teaching something and they finally do something for the first time and you hadn't asked for it. This is a, this is a gift. we don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. So usually it.
Usually the kinds of things that they are offering, you know, not usually dangerous. So you, you can, if you just redirect them and say, no thanks, but thanks for offering this, this can be very powerful. And then you, when you say no thanks, you offer them something to do that they can earn a reinforcer for. It's called the redirection stimulus. So when I say no, it doesn't mean you're wrong. means you're looking in the wrong place for what you want.
And I have what you want over here. Just go put your foot on this pedestal and you'll get what you're looking for. That's excellent. The indirect stimulus is very powerful. definitely. And that's a great, I love how you explain that. think that's going to help a lot of people out. And so you're taking, the human sees it as a negative or the human will say the horse is taking over. He takes over. And that's when you're saying he's assuming. And really he's probably trying, he's probably trying to get out of trouble. let's redirect, you know, redirection stimulus and take him.
over here keep that curiosity brewing. that's brilliant. That all comes from Dr. Zellig's. Okay. All right. So what, what would you say for our audience are maybe one or two simple changes they can make in their everyday, just being with their horse that will make a large improvement in.
the progression that they have with their horse. Cause you're really good at, like you did, you did the blood, blood draw one last year and you're talking about, you know, applying eye ointment. These are all really practical things that we've all had to do to our horses. And if we can set it up properly, now we're creating a learning environment around this, whatever XYZ we're doing. these things are not pleasant for the horse. Right. So.
We have to find strategies to help them through the tough times. And the fundamental piece that everybody should take away from, from what I'm offering is this idea that you should come bearing gifts and build up a big relationship bank account. Because when the bank account is huge, small withdrawals are insignificant. know, Bill Gates doesn't care if you, if you know, if somebody steals a thousand dollars from him or he has to spend a thousand, it's like pocket lint, right?
But somebody who only has $300 and they have a thousand dollar vet bill, this is devastating. So we want to build up a big bank account that, that, know, when we have the occasional withdrawal, the source does not resent it. So this is come bearing gifts. Gifts are unconditional. The only condition is no mugging, no aggressive behavior, no precursors to, but if you're struggling with that, do it from the other side of the fence, just come bearing gifts. And the gifts don't always have to be food, scratching, find those itchy spots. That's one of the best things you can do.
And then also on demanding time, you know, there's lots of ways to just spend time with your horse, everything from just being there and scratching them and loving on them and hanging out with them and showing them where the good grass is to, you know, reading a book, you know, where you don't have to be so involved. When students come here to stay for a while, I give them a pony to play with. I said, you, I want you to just spend time with him. And what I mean by that is take him everywhere you go, do everything you're doing.
He doesn't have to stick to you like glue, but he should remain in the air. And if he doesn't, you know, call him back and scratch him and give him a cookie. And then, you know, if you're cleaning poo or if you're fixing fences or if you're watering, whatever you're doing, take him with you. within, you know, just a few days, he is like, to them. So spend more time with your horse when you're not trying to get something done and come bearing gifts. the two biggest things. Once you have this relationship, now when you start to try to do these things like
injections and blood draws and eye alignment and taking their temperature. I think we did deworming. did one on deworming. It's, ⁓ you, you draw on that bank account, but also they, they trust you more that you're not going to hurt them any more than, you know, has to be done. You're not going to, you know, intentionally inflict any pain on them other than the bare minimum of what needs to happen for the, for the medical procedure, the husbandry procedure.
They know they understand your intentions and that you have their best interest in mind. And you've built that through the solid relationship through putting a bunch of money in that bank. now this year you're doing presentations on the farrier and helping your horse get ready for the farrier. Can you talk a little bit? ⁓ interesting. All this stuff we're talking about has been in all of my presentations for you, of course, for six years or five years prior.
But this particular one is a little bit less focused on that. mean, of course, if you can find me, you can find how to learn more about positive reinforcement training and what I do. But in this case, I have a remarkable trimmer. He also does shoes. I only had one horse with shoes on and he passed away. So now he's just my trimmer, but he's a remarkable individual and the way he does, he's never studied horsemanship. He's never studied horse psychology, but he's remarkable in his natural.
to interacting with a horse when he doesn't have a lot of time and the horse is worried. And so this was fascinating to hear him tell these stories about these horses that, you there's five people to hold the horse and he says, just go away, leave me alone. And he would just walk up to him and say, Hey buddy, and then walk away. And he says, he already knows who I am. He can smell me. He smells my, my shafts, my tools. He knows what I'm here to do.
And he knows every experience he's ever had with somebody that smells and looks like him. said, so I need to change his perception of me. He's, he's by the time I'm checking him out to see if I'm going to be safe, he's already checked me out. So this is the kind of attitude and we talked to him for about 45 minutes and, ⁓ he gives you a lot of suggestions about how you can help the farrier, not just in preparing, backing to pick the foot up, but in attitude and,
tolerance and understanding that the horse is not trying to be bad. So that was remarkable. The first one. And the second one, I give some tips on how to help horses that really have trouble picking up their feet. There's a few techniques that I learned from Pat about, know, just holding up the foot or leading by a foot. Things that, things that you wouldn't think would relate to the horse picking up the foot and holding it for you, but they get used to you manipulating them by the feet and then they
They lose anxiety about it and then they will, they will calm down and hold their feet. You know, every horse that does ever come to me with issues about cleaning the feet or hammering on shoes or trimming. This technique has really helped. It's, it's simple, but not easy because you have to have good timing and it's oftentimes helpful to have a helper that can hold the horse's head and you can try to move the hindquarters by the legs. this
This stuff, it really works. So I presented that, which is, know, of course we couple it with positive reinforcement. If they yield, I bridge them and I treat them, but it's a little bit more about dealing with pressure on their leg that they shouldn't try to kick or pull away from. So we have to present them with that barrier and show them this is not a place to be kicking. And that I think is going to be most helpful. It's not basic training on picking up feet or preparing the horse for the ferry. It's for the horses that...
just seemed to persist having trouble. And in our horses, we use this from the bolts on, from the babies on. just teach it, doesn't matter, of course. So it never is a problem if you start just by leading around by the legs. One of those things that, that, uh, you know, again, a little bit of a shout out to Pat is this idea that when they're little, they are naturally super learners and Dr. Miller.
was the first one to, you know, the imprint training of the newborn foal. The first one, kind of categorize that, you know, these, these little, little, foals and yearlings, if you can, you know, get them yielding to the, to ropes and places that, you know, if they should be out in the field and get their foot caught in a fence, they're not going to saw their leg off because you've done this easy preparation. Once they've already, you know, adult and they've kicked three barriers and put them in hospital. Okay. It's going to be a little bit more challenging. So I just start, you know, all the things that.
cause horses trouble, I try to show them before we ever ride them before. Dr. Zellings talks about this a lot. Like the primary thing about training for her is the animal's welfare. So which means, you know, is he safe? Is aggression being handled? And can we do all the medical procedures we need to do for the rest of his life? And those are the first things that have to get done before they can do all the cool stuff, bouncing the ball on the nose and the sea lion and all the cool stuff.
comes later, but the primary is being able to have, you know, veterinary care. And oftentimes, you know, you or I could do it with our own horse, but the vet comes and then the horse panics. So I have met on many occasions for doctors, Alex played the part of a vet. put on a lab coat and I walk in with a fake X-ray machine and you know, do stuff like that. This is all stuff that's, that's considered the
primary importance for training that people usually skip. It's people overlook it. They see it as a little thing. They see barn handling or when a horse is getting fed grain time at a barn. You know how many horses get screwed up during grain time and feeding time? And so people see it as a little thing, but I appreciate your message that these are actually really big things. These are, it's like the horse has to have this understanding.
Because this is what really is going to matter to the horse. so people think that, well, unless they're in an arena, they're not really working with their horse and they couldn't be further from the truth. So you're, really bringing awareness to these things that are actually really huge. Yeah. And the, you know, the horse is, is his own worst enemy in this case, because, you know, let's say, you know, 60 % of them could care less, you know, so people get away with not working on those things, but
But it's important even for those horses because something will come along one day and then he won't know how to handle his emotions when he does get scared or he does feel some pain that he's not used to.
and I think, you know, just because you brought up emotions, I think it'd be good to touch on how, you know, using reward and our training can help our horses with that piece as well, the emotional piece. Well, I teach a coping strategy. and it was actually the foundation of the blood draws and, ⁓ and injections video at the whole first part as teaching this coping strategy, which is, can be like a,
Some people refer to it as a stop button. So give the voice of voice that he can say, no, thank you. And then you have to honor that. And you teach him that if he will, you know, instead of throwing his tail over his back and taking off, he lowers his head and says, you know, could you please, you know, do away with the needle moment. we honor that, then we, then he starts to feel like he has some control over his own destiny. this brings the emotions way down.
So just even not even talking about positive reinforcement, of course, you can reinforce calm behavior and that helps. But this coping strategy is, the thing that people are missing is that the horse needs to be able to say no in a way that's compatible with both our safety. But it's, you know, we teach the coping strategy using positive reinforcement. So it's console.
I think that's, that's really good. And I think when any of us have a say, you know, animals included right away, our nervous system can down regulate and because now we're not a victim, we're in control and you're giving the horse a voice. So he feels, feels like he's got some control over his, like you said, over his... Over his own environment. Yeah. I mean, he has in the wild, right? He has complete control. can, gone. But, ⁓ not in our environment, we have to help him know that.
that you can't do. I think it's all creatures have a need to be able to feel like they are in control of their own environment, that they can control their own destiny. That's the missing piece here. And so often with people, you see nervousness or fear, concern sort of just sublimates into this controlling thing. That's like a mechanism that the human's nervous, so now they want to control.
And so now they're facilitating more of that nervousness in their horse. Yeah. Yeah. It's, this is a, this is an area that's probably my weakest area is helping students to get control of their own self so that they don't project it into the horse. It's very easy for the horse to pick up. They, don't have to think about it. They are, they are built to with mirror neurons to, recognize when we, when our heartbeat goes up, they recognize when we have tension, when we're excited, they, they.
feel all of that from distance of hundreds of yards. can, they can, they can sense that. So that's, you know, my weakest area. Basically I'm kind of a lazy schlub, so I don't get too excited about stuff. And it, and I, you I get along with animals, but I know that many students have needed to, find some yoga or find some meditation. that's, Dr. Selig's latest book is Zen and the Art of Animal Training. she has taken that on.
to herself to do some little bit of meditation. And when I do have those moments, you know, a little reset, a mental reset, take a breath, photo coming place, it can just take two minutes and then you can interact with the horse again. Bringing yourself back to the present. And I know, you know, I took a sneak peek at all of the presenters this year and there's more than one that are talking about.
ways to incorporate that in yourself. So, you know, it's, it's a little bit sad. There are so many presenters that, you know, I haven't been able to watch them all. But I have looked at all of their bios and all of their presentations and they look really, really good. I'm very excited to, as many as I can watch, I'm going to, it's good lineup this year. We're excited. And I think, you know, we need to view our interactions with our animals as we've got, you know, the animal.
We've got ourselves and then we've got us together. And so there's a lot for the person to do away from the horse to work on these things with regulating their emotions and, you know, being aware of where they're at so that when they bring themselves into the equation with the horse, they can, they've already taken that moment that you're just talking about the two minutes to breathe and to center and, know, so that now when they come into the, the horse's world, the feel already feels like, boy, I want to be with you.
I mean, it's remarkable. It's joyful. thought this is, you know, we're talking about all the negatives and the downsides, but this whole experience is designed to be joyful. I think this idea about using, you know, these are not new principles, but they are new to the horse world somewhat. And they are also evolving as to how we apply them. This idea of using a marker, a bridge marker.
Clicker training. It's, it's not that new. It's fairly new, but this idea of using your voice, this is, this is way more powerful than just a clicker. Cause the clicker either clicks or it doesn't click. And your voice can be so expressive. You can convey to the horse that he just did a fantastic job. And he, if he shows up over here, you have a big bucket of oats. I mean, because that was great. Or you can tell him that was good. And you did the minimum and you're going to get the minimum.
Okay. You can convey all that information through your voice and you have the way you present the information to them, which you can't do with a clicker or a whistle. I had this year a, a paint that was confirmed deaf by a veterinarian come in for training. And I started the paint and the owner clicker trained this deaf paint. And she, you know, she laughed and she said she clicker trained it and it's like,
Yeah, but it's, it's all of you. It's your energy. It's when women are, you know, when people are happy, we smile and we tilt our head and we'd smile at our horse. It's our, it's our posture. It's our, energy, our vibes. So the clicker in that case was for the human. Yeah. Couldn't hear it anyway. But what, when the timing, ⁓ and feel and all these things, the owner was able to, you know, it's, worked really good for her, but in this instance, horse couldn't hear the clicker, but everything else that that person put out. That's what the horse.
Well, we have, we have three types of secondary reinforcers, or we call it a bridge. Without getting too technical, it bridges the gap in time between the moment that they do what you want and when they potentially have a primary reinforcer, like a food or a scratch or something. So the three types of bridges are auditory, audible. So that would be, you know, the clicker or good or whatever you're using.
But there's also visual. So for the DevHorse, she didn't realize that when she was clicking, she was creating some visual cue for him, but she was. it doesn't have to be the sound. can be either a visual. We had a blind in DevHorse and we were using scents, some peppermint smell or some, what else did we use? Lavender. Yeah.
So, ⁓ yeah, it's super, it's super powerful. definitely. That's so cool. Have you seen, have you seen Endo the blind horse? No. No. Yeah. You should look him up. We will. There's a remarkable amount of trust in her and the horse. can't remember her name, but Endo the blind horse. It's all you, there's thousands of videos of him, but he's, he's in an open arena that he has not been in before. He's cantering circles around her.
is that, you know, he has no eyes. It's not like, you know, can see shadows. And he's quite a character. She leaves the stall door open because he likes to press himself up to the corner so he knows where he is in the stall when she goes to these shows and fairs and stuff. And then I was talking to her, she says, yeah, sometimes, you know, he gets a little brazen and he knows that you can sense that somebody left a bale of hay in front of their stall, or he wanders out and finds it, you know. that's a good, that is amazing.
I told her one day, said, you know, there's only one thing that explains what's going on between you and this horse and that's love. said, is the, you know, the amount of trust the horse has for you and the amount of love you have for this horse to offer him everything he needs to feel safe, even when everything is unsafe. It's amazing. absolutely. Yeah, that is amazing. We'll have to look that up and take a look. Well, David, we sure appreciate you joining us here today. Are there any other?
comments or things you'd like to visit about before we go? No, just, you know, try to take a new attitude when you, when you go hang out with your horse and maybe don't ask so much and spend a little more time. That's probably the, even I need to learn that. And would you like to let people know where they can find more information about you? Yeah, I think you, you probably have a link you can, ⁓ to give them, but if they just look up, ⁓ davidlichman.com, it'll
take you to the right place. There's a learn more with David and you can see my courses and clinics. And if you sign up for one of the online courses, you can get access to the video library that has all of the ones I've done for you and there. And they can always email me. I'm happy to answer a question or questions about how to learn or whatnot. have, I have ongoing coaching groups on Facebook. There's lots of ways.
Well, we sure appreciate everything you're doing, helping people and helping horses. And we really, we really like what you have to say and maybe we can have you back another time. thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. I would love to. love the fair. I love all the presenters and this year is better than ever.
