Paula Curtis (00:42)
I'm Paula Curtis and today we're revisiting a 2019 conversation with clinician and World Equestrian Games competitor Warwick Schiller, recorded just after I wrapped up our very first online horse fair.
Warwick shares why mindset beats mechanics, how the 10-year-old girl style of simply being with your horse builds real connection, and a few practical results you can try today, like two minutes of meditation and counting judgmental thoughts.
We'll also touch on flow in high pressure moments and letting presence, not pressure, guide the work.
If you love relationship first horsemanship, you're in the right place. Follow the show, leave us a quick review and grab your free ticket to the online fair at becausethehorse.net forward slash free ticket. All right, settle your breath, soften your eyes, get curious. Here's Warwick Schiller.
Speaker 1 (01:32)
I think the one talent I have is I can explain things to people in the way they understand. I think I've been lucky because I'm not talented. And so I've had really completely understand something before I can actually do it. And then...
I can teach it because I know all the ins and outs of it. And initially it was more along the lines of techniques. And then the last two or three years I've had some huge big changes in how I view things. And so now I can actually tell people how I made those mental changes as well, because I had to, you know, the thing about say, let's say like Tom Dorrance, okay.
He didn't meditate. He didn't have mindfulness practices. didn't go to yoga. He didn't do any of those things that a lot of people these do these days to kind of get that inner peace thing going on. He just had that. He just had it. I don't think they knew to even tell people about it because they didn't even know they had it because it was just part of who they were. You know what mean? that's lot of talented people are that way too. They can do things without knowing how they do them. But this is not so much the doing. This is the
who you are on the inside thing, which I really think is probably the biggest part of the whole getting along the courses. those guys were, know, Tom Durrance was like Buddha or Jesus Christ or whatever. mean, like they were kind of like enlightened beings, they didn't, they didn't, like I said, he didn't read Eastern philosophy and you know, any of that sort of stuff, but at its core, that's what it was. And so what I've found these days is,
clinics and stuff, I start out, I do a big old two hour long talk before even going anywhere near the horses about that whole, not another, inner landscape of yourself, know, like working on different things like, you know, like judgmental thoughts and just a lot of stuff like that. And it's really made a huge difference with people as how they get along with their horses, because it's less about techniques and it's more about changing just how you view the world, you know.
Speaker 2 (03:23)
Yeah.
It really is. And I love how you say inner landscape because it is a landscape. And I also love how you say Tom Dorrance was just a being, you know, that and that's what he was. He was just, he was just pure more just, I don't want to say pure because we're none of us are pure, but pure being, you know, he just, he was there. He was present. He was grounded. He was, he was coming from this joyful inner spirit. I've never met him, but I just, you know, I've studied him ever since I was a kid, you know, and,
It's this pure energy that makes sense to the horse. It's so easy for them to understand. And then it's it's beauty moving forward. But he even said, I don't want to kind jumble it too much, but he said as he got older, he realized even more how much less it needed to be or how little it could actually take. I don't remember where I...
where I had read that, but I thought that was interesting that even for him it was a journey. You know, it's not just a journey for each and every one of us that isn't perfect and isn't good, but even for the true masters, it's a journey. Which is inspiring because that means there's always room to improve, which means we get to learn all the time, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (04:33)
.
The other good thing about understanding it's a journey is you can slow down. Because there is no end. not like, if I could just get to... Because there is no end. so it kind of makes you... And I think that's a big part of it. It makes you happy to what's going on. You don't feel the need to get to the next thing. It's very process-oriented versus...
versus results oriented. And people that I've met that were around Bill and Tom, they said, especially Bill, very, very process oriented. the, I'll get back to the whole enlightenment thing here, the most spiritual of the ancient Hindu practices was something called karma yoga. And karma yoga is applying yourself to a task with no thought as to the outcome of that task. That's what he did.
Speaker 2 (05:36)
Totally.
Speaker 1 (05:37)
I mean, it's doing it. Do you know, it's just doing it with not doing it because this is going to get me this. You are just doing it. And a friend of mine from New Zealand, name is Jane Pike. She's a horse riding mental coach. ⁓ he posted something recently. So she was our mental coach when went to the World of Question Games last year. But she posted something recently and she said, if you're doing the work,
If you're doing the work with your eye on the outcome, you're not actually doing the work.
Speaker 2 (06:04)
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (06:05)
But yeah, it's that, it's just that whole, and like you said, it's just being present. And if you're present, you're not thinking about the outcome, because there is no outcome if you're present. just, whatever's in front of you is what you're working with.
Speaker 2 (06:18)
Right? Yeah, you know, I've got two kids, one six and the other is 11. And right out the front door, not front door, but my window up here, I'm seeing her graze her pony and you know, and they'll come up to the back door with the ponies and they will just leave them there, not tied or anything. Come in the house, do stuff, the horse weight's there, no problem. You know, there's this, kids have it so naturally and so easily. It's not, it's just
They're just being with the horse and they're green.
Speaker 1 (06:46)
Yeah, I call that 10 year old girl training.
Speaker 2 (06:49)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:50)
No, I've had to you know, I did that as a kid but I've had to get back to that because I was a professional horse trainer for a long time where I bring you the horse you get it out you work whether you put it back you're training it to do something and I you know, I've kind of got away from that whole
you know, just being with them stuff. And it wasn't until I stopped, you know, I stopped training horses for the public a few years ago and it wasn't until I stopped doing that, then I really started connecting with the horses a lot more because we had our horses at home, you know, we bought a place, we've got our horses at home, they're outside the kitchen window here, I can see them right now. yeah, that's it. You know, I was at a horse expo in New Zealand a couple of years ago and I'm just leaving this Friday to go back to the same expo.
And I had to do a demo one afternoon and it was Problem Solving Under Saddle was the name of the demo. And so I turn up for the demo and I'm waiting for the horse to come in and this lady leads in this little pony looking sort of a horse with a halter on it. Okay, it's got no saddle on it. I'm like, what's going on here? And she goes, oh, this is a Kamanoa, which is like the Mustang of New Zealand, it's the wild horse of New Zealand. And she said this horse is,
five years old, been out of the wild for a year or something or other. And I said, can you write it? Because all these people have come to see a problem solving under saddle demonstration. Can you write him? And she said, oh yeah, my 10 year old daughter writes him. I said, does she ever ride in bareback? And she said, yeah. And said, oh good, well I'm just going to throw the lead rope over, tie it off, hop on bareback in the halter and I'll do a problem solving under saddle. And whatever pops up.
So I threw the rope over, tied it up, hopped on, and as I hopped on this horse took off bucking down the arena, some rodent's horse bareback bucking down the arena.
They're about 13, 2, 13, 3, some kind of slight sort of horses. I just, this horse bucked down the arena and I just reached down to the left and just kind of put a bit of a bend at him to the left and he kind of circled around that one away and we got stopped and said, okay, well, there seems to be the problem. This is my pony bucks under saddle. And the pony walked off at this point in time and I went to just steer the pony to the right. So I just kind of reached down the lead rope and went to steer to the right.
He shook his head twice and I didn't let go. I didn't pull harder, I didn't let go. I just stayed there. He shook his head twice and I didn't let go. So he stopped, poured the ground twice, I didn't let go. He reared up twice, I didn't let go. And then his head moved very slightly to the right and I let go. And I said, okay, that seems to what we're gonna work on here. This horse doesn't have to turn right. Ask him to turn right, he says no. So for the next 45 minutes or whatever, I just walk along, I just touch that right rein and he'd stop.
I'd shake his head twice, then he'd stop, pull the ground twice, rear up twice, then he'd move his head. And by the end of the session, I could steer him to the right. Big deal, but I could steer him to the right.
Speaker 2 (09:31)
Yep.
Speaker 1 (09:32)
So that was the session. So then I got done and they have a night show at this horse expo and so I had to go inside for the night show and they asked me to judge. They had this thing called New Zealand's Got Talent. And so Vicki Wilson who won the road to the horse the last couple of years ago, New Zealand girl, she's judging it with me and Dan Steers from Australia. I know if you know who Dan Steers is. I don't. Dan Steers, James is in the double Dan's thing. He's the other partner from Australia.
These judges too, and so we're sitting there and the first was the kids thing. What they do is they bring in some obstacles and it's like a freestyle to music. Some of them are at Liberty or whatever. Anyway, at one point time, this girl comes in on this little pony. She's riding it around and all of sudden I looked at it and I'm like, that's that pony I rode this afternoon that doesn't know anything. Okay? Like as far as you ask him to do something, he doesn't know anything. But she's riding him bareback in a halter and he's going wherever she wants.
And at one point in time, she was going to come around in a right turn and there was a walk the plank type thing on the ground. So it was very narrow. It was probably 10 inches wide and probably about 12 feet long. And it looks like she's going to have to walk him along it. And as he was coming around, it's a right turn. I'm low this horse doesn't turn right. I said to Vicki Wilson, said, I bet you 10 bucks she doesn't go across this. She goes, okay.
She comes around this right turn, rides up to it and this horse goes like this all the way across, some other obstacles. And then she gets off, takes the halter off. And when this horse was on the ground, it was a little bit pushy and pulling on the lead rope and stuff. And she takes the halter off. So now it's at liberty beside her and she's heads towards that thing again. And I said to Vicki Wilson, watch this. I bet you another 10 bucks, won't go across. The horse went across this thing. I'm thinking that this horse doesn't know anything. He is not trained.
to do anything. The aids don't work. Why is he doing this? And I'm like, I get it.
Speaker 2 (11:20)
collection.
Speaker 1 (11:21)
10
year old girl stuff. She spent all her time on this horse. She hasn't trained him to do anything, but whatever she wants him to do, he'll do because of the connection. I'm like, that's what I'm missing. I've been missing that for 30 years. You know, I got away from that when you get into being a horse trainer, you get away from doing that as a kid. You know what mean?
Speaker 2 (11:39)
I do.
Speaker 1 (11:40)
And so, you know, because she was 10 years old, I call it 10 year old girl training, but she could get this horse to do things that it's not trained to do. Ask it to do that doesn't do it. It's just that connection. So yeah, that's a really got into like, yeah, that's something you need to do more of is 10 year old training.
Speaker 2 (11:56)
Well, that's so cool, because I think that empowers people as well, because you don't have to be a good trainer. And we all have to be good communicators. So that's something people could work on interpersonally, as well as with horses. But it comes back to, which is, it's hard, think, initially in the thought process. But once you realize it, it makes it easier. It's all about working on yourself.
And then when we turn around and realize we're the only one that has to change, that actually is a lot easier than us trying to change everything else. Which is cool. But I love that story. It's hilarious. But it completely illustrates that point about it's the connection. It's that intention. It's where you're coming from that matters to the horse.
Speaker 1 (12:30)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Which is cool. I've been, like, at clinics lately, I've been telling people, you know, you, it's all about controlling what you think about. Yeah. Where your mind is, and also, you know, and then your physiology from that, you know. And I tell people, you know, if you cannot control, you know, like, I recommend everybody takes up some sort of a meditation practice.
I say, if you, is just about controlling what your mind thinks about. A lot of people think it's about not thinking about something. It's just about, you you may have your mind focus on your breathing or sensation seeing in the chair or whatever, but it's controlling what your mind thinks about. And I tell people, if you can't control what your mind thinks about when you're sitting comfortably in a chair in your living room, then you're out trail riding, it's a windy day, your horse's head goes up, his ears pop up there, and you look up there and there's a plastic bag in a bush and you've got to go past it.
If you can't control it when nothing's going on right there, then I guarantee you're going to go to worst case scenario type things. Your butt cheeks are going to climb up and your legs are to clump up and you can just mentally see yourself falling off. And then you're like, is it a helicopter or an ambulance going to come here? And which hospital am I going to go to? I hope I go to this hospital because there's a good back surgeon there. And I know I'm going to probably bake my back when my horse spooks and, and, and on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (13:56)
That's too funny.
Speaker 1 (13:57)
Yeah. And you know, people I've become aware of, I've met people and become aware of people in the last few years who can mentally picture what they want the horse to do. And I always tell people if, those people can mentally picture what they want them to do, you mentally picturing that out on a trail ride is just as as asking for the spook, you know what I mean? So you've got to be able to control what your mind thinks about it. You need to be able to control what you want to happen versus what you, what you don't want to happen.
Speaker 2 (14:23)
Right, right. And there's that whole kind of thought of, you might know it at the back of your mind, but what are you putting out there really at the front of your mind? And because that is the horse, you know, the horse is going to pick up on those pieces. But a lot of times we're all living up here in the front of our mind. And if the bad things at the back of the mind are all sitting up here too, that can get us into some big trouble.
Speaker 1 (14:46)
Have you ever heard of Danielle Babier?
Speaker 2 (14:49)
I have.
Speaker 1 (14:49)
Yeah, so his book, Ultimate of Lightness, he talks about. Have you ever read that book?
Speaker 2 (14:53)
have it's been years.
Speaker 1 (14:54)
But I
have, He talks about your front mind and your back mind and...
Speaker 2 (14:58)
That's probably
where I got it. Yep, that's probably where I got it.
Speaker 1 (15:01)
Yeah, that's a very cool book because it, you know, the subtitle is the molecular connection between horse and rider. And it's all about thoughts and energy and quantum physicsy type stuff, you know, which I'm really into these days.
Speaker 2 (15:14)
Yeah, yeah, so it's so interesting. This is the other part I really like about horsemanship is when you get to this place in horsemanship. It's so much about your life. And these things that you read about and that the people that you learn from, they completely they become a part of who you are. And they become a way that just it facilitates so much growth in your life. And
And you don't even know where it all comes from, you know, but you know when it's right. And it's lifemanship. It changes the way you are in your life. And I think it's one of the greatest gifts horses can give us because I don't know that there are many animals out there that, I don't even know how to express it.
but that can facilitate us learning that about ourselves.
Speaker 1 (16:04)
Yeah, I actually think that's why they're here.
Speaker 2 (16:06)
Yeah, I think you're probably right.
Speaker 1 (16:09)
And I think that's why they...
why they can seem to be difficult. All the difficult goes away when you really change your thought process about what they're actually doing. For a while now I've been quoting one dire when he says, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.
Speaker 2 (16:25)
like that, I've heard that.
Speaker 1 (16:26)
And you know, and it's just a thing with, you know, I really think there are no difficult horses.
You know, they may be having some, you know, people may be difficulty with them, but they're not really difficult. That's, that's, they've been their last option because people haven't been listening to all the little things, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:40)
Right, definitely, definitely. And I think, you know, it's like what you're talking about initially that us judging that behavior, you know, so that's another part of us that we're saying that's bad behavior, but really the horse is just surviving. And he's surviving because of all of the information that he's gathered throughout his life to that point. And unfortunately, some horses have been through some not so good situations.
Sometimes that means we need to take a huge step back though from what our expectations are from the relationship and take a look at what the horse needs.
Speaker 1 (17:13)
No, yeah, that's the big part is not having that expectation. Because if you're having an expectation, you're not listening. You are like, okay, this is what I want to do. Yeah, I really think it's about first thing is like, I'm not going to ask for anything. I'm not going to do anything. I just want you to tell me where you're at, you know, like wait for them to tell you what needs to be done next as opposed to telling them what you're to have them do next.
Speaker 2 (17:35)
Right. Right. And sometimes it means you just go out and you be that 10 year old girl, and you go watch your new pony in the same pasture with them, but you sit and you just sit there and you watch them. And you learn about them and you let them get curious about you. But I think, you know, we're on a timeframe, we're checking our watch where your phone is beeping, you know, we're, just rushing and we've only got 10 minutes and we feel like we need to get x, y and z done.
And what's your recommendation for people that are struggling with that sort of thing? ⁓
Speaker 1 (18:07)
I have quite a few of them. Most of them have nothing to do with horses. That's great. These days I recommend people take up some sort of a meditation practice, like get some sort of a meditation app on your phone, like Headspace is a good one and start out with, you know, a two or three minute meditation a day. It takes a bit of doing, but you know, like they say, you should meditate...
Speaker 2 (18:11)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:31)
And if you don't have time to do it for 20 minutes a day, you should meditate for 20 minutes twice a day.
Speaker 2 (18:34)
you
Speaker 1 (18:35)
But it really, it's, yeah, I tell you what, something I started doing last year, year before, I was told this practice to count judgmental thoughts. So when you wake up in the morning, count judgmental thoughts during the day. And what you find when you start counting judgmental thoughts is the first thing that happens, you become aware of how many judgmental thoughts you actually have. That's a big part of it.
But then you also become aware of how many judgmental thoughts you have about yourself, which is a big part of it. And then you, then you kind of start to realize how much you actually beat yourself up about things. And have you ever heard of Brene Brown?
Speaker 2 (19:13)
I heard the name. I don't know anything about.
Speaker 1 (19:15)
Renee Brown's an amazing lady. was a quantitative researcher, therapist, was a quantitative researcher, but now she's all her research that she ever did turned the thing that popped up that's the scourge of society is shame. And she quantifies the difference between guilt and shame is shame is I am stupid, guilt is I did something stupid, but next time I won't sort of thing, you know what mean? And so a really good exercise is to count
Be aware of your judgmental thoughts during the day. Try to keep that in the front of your mind. Is that a judgmental thought? And count these judgmental thoughts. So then you realize how many you have, but then you realize how many you have about yourself. And then you can reframe them instead of going, I'm so stupid. You can say, well, that was a stupid thing to do. I remember not to do that next time. And so it takes that, that heavy weight of self-loathing or whatever the hell we all have, you know, that whole.
you're not good enough and all that sort of stuff. kind of, it just starts to away at that. And I really think when you start chipping away at that stuff, it really, that's when it starts helping with your horses because you can also reframe things your horses do. So just learning to reframe judgements. And so when your horse does whatever, instead of going, he's doing that because he's trying to get at me and he's trying to, you kind of go, well, he's doing that because that's what he feels he needs to do to survive right now.
It's, it's, ⁓ think it's anything you need to do with your horse. think it's a good thing to do away from your horse. Like practice that, that personal growth stuff. the horse is where you get to test it out, but you don't, know, if you're trying to change that about you only when you're working with your horse, it's going to take forever. And you're going to, you're going to inject a lot of that stuff into your horse because if you can work on it, you know,
away from that and then use those skills that you've got to then use it when you're with your horse. think that's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (21:08)
I think that is too, and I think that's really helpful for people to hear because sometimes I think people think they need to do it all with their horse, but there's so much going on and it's so hard to control all those little nuanced internal thoughts and feelings when you're with your horse. And it empowers them to then work on their horsemanship when they're away from their horse and become that person that they can then take to their horse.
and then get the feedback from their horse, you know, whether they're on the right track or not, because the horse will give you a pretty clear idea.
Speaker 1 (21:42)
Yeah, I think that's probably a big suggestion I'd make these days is all that sort of stuff, especially the meditation. think the meditation is... These days Navy SEALs meditate. It's not like it used to be some weird guy with a tie-dyed t-shirt cross-legged on a rock or something. These days, NFL players meditate.
Navy SEALs meditate, CEOs meditate. Everybody has some sort of a, now I think, cause I think we need that these days because we're all addicted to our phones and we've just got emails and so much stuff going on. Whereas guys like, I once asked, I think it was Brian Newbit, when it wasn't Brian Newbit, was, no, it Kurt Pate is who I actually asked one time. said, so why do you, how did the Dorrance brothers get that way?
I mean, they didn't meditate, they didn't read Eastern philosophy, they didn't go to see therapists, what the? And he says, I think it comes from being poor and being around animals all your life.
Yeah, so I presented at the Best Horse Practices Summit in Durango, Colorado a couple of years ago and at the night time thing we had a dinner. It's in an old town hall in Durango, Colorado. It's beautiful, but it's an old theatre is what it is. And so at night time we had a dinner and the after dinner entertainment was Brian Newbert and Randy Ryman up on stage telling stories about the Dorrinses. One of the stories one of them told was that the
they had a herd of registered Angus cattle. Okay. And they had a, I think they were tattooed under their lips, but they also had a tail tag on them that had their number on them. And Tom was away one time and while he was gone, Bill cut the tail tags off these, I think it was 50 of these cows. So they're black Angus cows. So I don't know if you know what a herd of black Angus cows looks like, but they're identical. So when, when,
I hope I get the story right, but when Tom came home he said to Bill, what happened to the tail tags? And Bill said, I cut those things up underneath them. And Tom was like, well, how are we going to tell them apart? And Bill goes, ⁓ I know every one of them. He goes, well, how many of them know their numbers? He goes, well, I know them and their numbers. And Tom was like, really? And Bill says, yeah, let's go rope some. So they go out there and Tom had roped the head, Bill had roped the heels, and then Tom would hop off his horse and walk down it before he got down there.
Bill would tell him the tattoo number before he got there and have a look at it. And he only wrote about four of them and he got everyone in right. And Tom goes, okay, you do know, but he memorized the numbers of 50 black Angus cows that are all the same age and the same shape and the same height. I mean, how do you do that? That's like being so present. It's not funny.
Speaker 2 (24:11)
Yeah, that's amazing.
Totally.
Speaker 1 (24:16)
There's another brother, I think his name was Fred, and they said he had the best memory of all of them. That's how I've been told. Yeah. So there's just something, I don't know, must have been something about where they grew up or whatever, I met a lady the other day and she grew up in Arizona, close to the Mexican border. And her parents divorced when she was very young and...
she went with her father. She was like two years old and she went with her father. And so her grandfather was a, I can't pronounce the name of it. It's an Indian tribe starting with a Y. Is it Yakavai or something like that? But her grandfather was a cowboy, worked on a ranch, but he was of that Indian tribe. And she spent all her childhood with him. And she said that he'd put her on the back of the saddle and they'd ride out. ⁓ They might come over a rise and he would just stop and say,
tell me when you see it. And she said she might sit there for half an hour and just observe everything that's going on and she'd go.
Well, there's a pair of red hawks over there that have, that look like they're their life-time mates or something rather. You know, things like that. he'd go, look in the fork, have a look at the mountain lion and the fork of the tree on the left, you know, things like that. But she would just sit for hours and just observe things. Anyway, she is, she can communicate with animals. She's got that, you know, that mind body, you know, energy connection thing, but I think she got it from her.
spent all this time with her grandfather who was by the sounds of it, some sort of a mystical sort of a dude. But the stories she told me were pretty crazy about some of the things that she's experienced with animals. Just having that presence in her body, you know what I mean? But she learned that at a young age instead of having that phone or whatever, sitting in front of the television she spent.
hours and and and and hours just out in nature and I think that's what the don'ts is when they grew up. That's what they did.
Speaker 2 (26:05)
I think that's that's so lacking now in in society in general, and it really is sad because it completely takes us away from who we are. And the powers that are actually inside of us, you know the powers that were not able to access because we just put all this stuff on top of it
Speaker 1 (26:24)
There's a lady that lives here in California named Kerry Lake. She's an animal communicator. Okay. But she teaches people how to do it. And she says, I'm not teaching you anything. I'm helping you remember. She says, we all, when we were kids, we were all in touch with all this stuff and we could, you know, there's information coming in and going out. And then we get to where it's all just going out, not really in touch with this sort of stuff.
I mentioned Jane Pike before, her husband was a filmmaker for National Geographic and he tells a story about being in the jungle in the Congo and they were filming this tribe and so he's doing all the camera work and the sound work and there's the guy who's the microphone guy you know here we're in the Congo with this tribe sort of thing and they would go out with them every day with the men hunting and they walk off into the jungle and he said it's so thick you walk 10 feet away from the camp and turn around you don't know how you got there
Can't be so thinking until the sun's up. don't know what direction it's in that sort of thing and so after five days of wandering around the jungle for four or five hours a day and then always finding their way back to camp He said to the chief one day so how do you find your way back to the camp because I You know, you're not doing the Hansel and Gretel. You're not dropping breadcrumbs and I can't tell which way is which and he said, that's easy We just asked the animals
And Giles was like, but I've been filming you for the last five days. I have not seen you stop, look up at a monkey and go, Hey, Mr. Monkey, where's my house? Can you see it from up there? You guys just, no, we don't talk to the animals. We talk to the animals.
Speaker 2 (27:47)
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:47)
And Giles was like, you can talk to the animals. And he's like, yeah, can't you? And Giles was like, no. And so the chief was like, hey, kids, come over here. I want to show you something. This guy can't talk to the animals.
Speaker 2 (27:59)
It was.
Speaker 1 (28:00)
it's perfectly normal for those people to be able to do it. And I think I really think all the First Nations people of the world could do that sort of thing because they just had that connection to nature. They weren't all civilized like we are. And so that's what that Kerry Lake talks about. She's talking about finding that again. She says we're all born with it and then we you know born with it to varying degrees and then we have it civilized
Speaker 2 (28:03)
Love it.
Speaker 1 (28:24)
out of us. You know, she told, because I said, well, how long have you been able to do it? Like get this feedback from animals. She says, it was my first language. I could do it before I could talk. And I said, so once you could actually speak and form words, how did it go when you told your parents, by the way, the dog tells me this or the cat tells me this or the birds or whatever. And she said, well, you know, as you can imagine, ⁓ don't be silly. You know, Carrie's just talking to imaginary friends and that sort of thing. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, think at some point in time, especially if you grew up around animals, I suppose if you grew up in the city and not around animals, you probably don't ever get that connection anyway. yeah, so it's interesting stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:05)
interesting stuff and it shows you how deep it can go and how far you can actually take it because I mean that's a that's a completely different level than you know your ordinary just horsemanship I guess.
Speaker 1 (29:18)
Right, yeah. But apparently we can all do it and it's achievable. It's all about that whole, you know, getting in touch with yourself first. You know who Frederick Pignone is?
Speaker 2 (29:29)
Another name I've heard, but I.
Speaker 1 (29:30)
He's
the French Liberty guy does a lot of Liberty stuff. yes And I saw something in him a while ago and Some sort of a documentary but he was in it but people were at his clinic and the first thing you had him do was learn how to meditate Like we're not working with the horses yet. You have to learn how to To be in control of this stuff before we start being in control of this stuff
Speaker 2 (29:57)
Thank
Speaker 1 (29:57)
And he does, his Liberty stuff's pretty amazing and it's all very fluid, as in sometimes the horses run off.
But when they do run off, he runs off with them. And he matches steps with them and then they just connect with him and then that's like a big old dance.
I did a, I presented at a horse expo in Minnesota, I think this year. The Minnesota Horse Fair, I think it was called. And sometimes at those horse expos, you know, I'm kind of the most well-known person there and sometimes I'm the least well-known person there. So sometimes you're in the little arena over the back and the big guys are in the big coliseum. But at this one, a couple of days, I was in the main coliseum there.
And one of the sessions I did, I talked for an hour about not training your horse. this, like things that are not training things about ways to create connection with the horse, but it's not asking them to do things. It's letting them know how present you are and you know, maybe matching steps and just being just aware of little things and talking about when you ask for things, asking with energy first versus a cue first and stuff like that. And
that place holds about 5,000 people full. by the end of it, looked around, there had to be a couple of thousand people in there, that thing, and they didn't leave. You know what I mean? There's actually more people coming in as I was there. So I went back to the booth and I told people, if you want to have a chat, come back to the booth. So I go back to the booth, there's a line of people. And I noticed in the line towards the back line was this big, tall, old...
craggy-faced cowboy guy, got an old dirty old straw hat on, he's got like a really dirty car heart jacket on with bib and brace over, all sort of thing, you know. And a lot of kind of enlightened people in the line asking questions about stuff. And he finally gets up to the front and introduces himself. And I'm thinking, yeah, this would be interesting. And he says, hello, Sonny, you were talking out there about using, moving horses with energy. And I said, yeah, and he said,
You want to know the best way to get a horse to move off your energy? And they're like, sure. And I'm thinking, this is going to revolve a big stick, isn't it? And he said, so what you should do is you should harness a great deal of energy in your root chakra and then bring it up into your heart space and breathe it towards them.
Speaker 2 (32:13)
That was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (32:15)
This has been from Minnesota. When I'm here in California, you can't expect that, you know what I mean? This was an old cowboy guy, he probably was about 70-something, from Minnesota. it was the... You could have knocked me over with a feather. That was the last I expected.
thing is, I think back in those days that was common knowledge. You know, like that sort of thing. I did a clinic in Australia earlier this year and a guy showed up the second day of the clinic to watch and he was a craggy-faced old cowboy looking fella too. You know, looked like a really old style horseman there. And I, you know, he missed the whole introduction the first day.
But I'm talking a lot about energy and we're working on moving horses with energy and intention and all that sort of stuff. And he stuck around the rest of the day and I thought, I bet this guy's over there thinking this, you're an idiot. And when I was finished, he stuck around and looked like he wanted to chat. So he came over and introduced himself. And he said, you know, you're talking about getting horses to move with energy. I said, yeah. He said, when I was a boy, said, I had an old guy show me, said, if you have a horse and a round pen and you want them to come to you, the best way to do it is look at their honk.
point your finger at their hind end, look at their hind end, and just imagine all the energy coming out of you down your finger towards that hind end. And if you do it for long enough, they'll just roll around and come up to you.
Speaker 2 (33:28)
you
Speaker 1 (33:30)
So that was
two experiences this year where, so he was an older guy, he was probably in his early 60s and he learned from an old guy. It's the same thing. So I think all this stuff's just been lost. It's not like we're inventing something new here, you know, like the tribe in the Congo and just things like that. It's not, you know, everything old is new again. It's just we've...
few generations we've got away from that sort of thing, but I think it's, we've just got to kind of relearn it.
Speaker 2 (33:58)
Yeah, I think you're right. And I think it's coming, coming. I think I think there's some polarity occurring actually right now where some people are really seeking it out and getting it back. And then you have the other side where it's going towards, you know, something that's not, I don't want to say not real, but not it, I guess.
Speaker 1 (34:18)
Yeah. And I, you know, I, you know, I've changed quite a bit about what I did. I've done the last probably the last three years. So for me, it's, it's still pretty fresh in my mind. Cause what I was doing before, you know, I was a professional trainer. So I was a horse trainer. get the horse. I train him how to respond to certain cues. It doesn't matter. You give them, I give them somebody else gives them. They, they work. Um, and
At the time, I was doing it, but at the time I was traveling around the world doing clinics and I was helping people with their horses and it was working. And so in my mind, I was right because it works. It's working. And so that's not that very long ago. So I know when people who are not say where I'm in now, they're still right.
they're still right because in their experience, they're right. Not like they know about a way or a different way this works for them. so, so they're right. So that really kind of, for me, it helps take the judgment out of when someone's not doing what you're doing. Um, I don't look at it and think, well, you're doing that wrong. I look at it and think, well, that's your truth at the moment. You know what I mean? And so, and I think that helps you. Cause if every person you see, think something
Speaker 2 (35:06)
Thank
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (35:29)
negative about them that just adds up anyway you know I took the year off last year from doing clinics I kind of wanted to take a step back and well the plan was to take a step back and kind of sort some things out but we end up doing the World of Question games too so that was kind of fun. So I didn't travel much last year when I'm about traveling this year what I've realized after like that judgment thing I was telling you about what I've realized in the past when I travel
If I'm in an airport, if I'm walking through an airport or sitting in an airport and I'm people watching, I'm judging. I'm not thinking the best thing about every person that's walking by, you know what mean? And so what I had started doing was when I'm walking through the airport, when people walk the other way, I look them in the eye and I give them little bit of an eye smile. They might not even look at you, but then I think, may you be happy. And the next person, may you be happy, may you be happy.
And what I found is you get to the other end of the airport and you have a completely different energy inside you than I used to have walking through an airport. So I realize now there's never nothing going on in the air. It's either something negative or it's something positive. And if you don't, for me personally, if I don't choose the positive, you know, because I've probably people watch for so long, it's just, do it without even thinking about it. If I don't choose the positive, I'll be.
judging again, you know what mean? But if I can have that, may you be happy thing. And actually, I've got a shorter version. Now we just went to Morocco, all places, believe it or not, I just got back from working with some horses in Morocco, but so Morocco is, you know, it's the top left hand corner of Africa, but it's just across from Europe, and it's just next to the Middle East. So it's a complete mixture of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. And so
People there, I mean, they speak English too, but most people speak either Arabic or French. And the Arabic people, when they greet each other, they say, uh, salam alaikom, which is basically peace to you. It's not, Hey, how are you? You know, I love those old cultures because, know, we say, Hey, how are you? But we don't really mean, how are you?
But when they say...
When those guys, they'll usually put their hand on their chest and they can look at you and they go, Salaam Alaikum. Like they say it with some.
sincerity, you know what mean? It's like peace to you. So that's shorter than maybe happy. So now my airport saying is, salam alaikum. It's just coming out quicker. Even the French there, you know, they all say bonjour, hello, and then sa va, which I think is how are you? But they all, all of them, they go bonjour, sa va.
Speaker 2 (37:47)
huh.
Speaker 1 (37:58)
They always touch their hat.
Speaker 2 (38:00)
So interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:01)
when they say survive and they all mean it too. You know what I mean? Like there is no hey going kind of greeting. And if someone comes along to a group of people, they will walk around and shake and they sometimes do the two kiss things too, but they will, you'll be in a, someone will walk up, no one even introduces them, but they'll walk, you're in a group of people, someone will walk up and the new person walks up and he just goes around and shakes hands with everybody there.
you don't have to introduce them to do that. they just, it was very, cool. I think because it's an older culture, they're just a bit more.
or I don't know if they're more connected with each other or just less disconnected than we are one or the other but yeah I really like that whole the way they they greet each other.
Speaker 2 (38:43)
like that too. That's interesting. They say there's been a lot lost in just the English language. It's a newer language and it's even just the meanings of the words are are lost. So it's interesting that you're talking about this because I've been I've been kind of learning about that and you know, some like Italian and Latin and, and how you can say one word and there's so much depth already implied in that word.
And that's exactly what you're speaking to is there's that depth there that you don't get with the, how are you? It's just kind of superficial and people answer superficially too, right? I'm fine. Are they really fine or how are they really feeling? And we can apply that to horses then too.
Speaker 1 (39:27)
Oh yeah, I started, you know, so when I went down there, I was asked to go down there by the Royal Society for the Encouragement of Horses in Morocco. And it's the, it's a, it's a government department. It actually comes under the Ministry of Agriculture, but it's a, government really wants the encouragement of horses. And so this big facility and they mostly have the barb breed there. Okay.
they're barbs and they're pure Arabians. And it's a big breeding facility, they have all these stallions. So I got to work with all these stallion, these purebred barb stallions, and some of them are supposed to be pushy and some of them are supposed to be aggressive and all these sorts of things. And I just worked on, so they had a round pen there, so I just worked with all these horses, just getting them to connect. And initially it turned loose and they just ran around and out the fence. But after a while they come and connect and...
You know, we videoed the whole thing and I was watching some videos of the day and when I reach out and they sniff me on the hand I'd go, Salaam alaikum.
Speaker 2 (40:27)
from here.
Speaker 1 (40:28)
There was something about those horses though, I don't know if it's, I don't know what it is, but like when one of those, yeah, it's crazy, but one of those Barb stallions like looks you in the eye, they like look into your soul. was...
It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (40:44)
Yeah, that is pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (40:45)
And it was, what's interesting, so I'm in this round pen and across the road is a mosque. A mosque that's got a big tall minaret off of it. And five times a day, the call to prayer would go off. It was very, very good. A couple of times some of the horses had laid down, laying down when the call to prayer went off. That was pretty good. I've got a couple of pictures of me squatting down here and there's a horse laying down here and in the background, here's this tall.
the Masque across the Strait is pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (41:15)
That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (41:16)
We went and saw a thing there, it the most amazing thing we've ever seen. in Morocco they have this cultural thing called Teburida. And it's a horse event and it's based on old warfare practices. And what they do, they have a team of 15 in a row and they're all dressed up in the full whole Arabic garb, you know what I mean? And they're all carrying these big musket rifles. And what they do is they, in a line, they canter slow, then they canter fast.
then they can a full garrop and these guys stand up in the stirrups that are full gallop holding these big muskets and they swing them around and then boom they shoot them all off at exactly the same time and then they come to a halt in a line. It's a part sport, part martial art, part cultural event. It's actually a UNESCO World Heritage Listed Cultural Event. And it comes from warfare practices and so we're in the north of Morocco and they shoot the guns up because up there
enemies would be up on hills and things, whereas in the south of Morocco, it's close to the part of Sahara Desert, when they shoot their guns, they shoot it down in between the horses, because their enemies were on the ground and not up above them. So this thing we went to, there was 1,100 stallions in one place at one time, like closely packed in together. Every one of them has like a finely embroidered saddle and saddle clots with the
silver and stuff in it and tassels hanging off it and the full decorative brow bands and I mean it was just I felt like I was on the scene of not being her that's Roman but I felt like I was in a movie but there's 1,100 stallions in one place at the same time the energy was just crazy it was yeah it was amazing
Speaker 2 (42:59)
I bet. think it's so cool that you've been able to travel the world and see some of these differences in not only how people express themselves culturally, but also to be able to see what they're doing with their horses because it opens the door to more possibilities that would not have even, just by language,
you know barriers that you wouldn't even discover because you don't have the language to discover it. So being able to see it and be exposed to it is so that's pretty special. That's pretty neat.
Speaker 1 (43:33)
It was very cool when I worked with those students there, because they had an interpreter for me. So this guy's been an interpreter at the UN, like, so he, you can talk to him and he can talk a different language in real time. So you can just keep talking, he just keeps spitting it out. So it comes in one ear, he processes it another language and spits it out. And so he was, he was very, very helpful. people watching, English wasn't their first language or even they might not even know English.
Sometimes he's talking French, sometimes he's talking...
Speaker 2 (44:01)
wow. So he was doing like a lot of languages.
Speaker 1 (44:04)
⁓ Yeah, so he was sometimes it was French sometimes it was Arabic he wasn't translating it into both but But it was pretty cool working with these these Barb stallions with all the so all the trainers from Trainers and breeders from around there were they watching you it was it was very cool
Speaker 2 (44:21)
So tell us a little bit about your journey getting to where you are now because you started in Australia, if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (44:29)
I up on an Australian sheep and wheat farm in Australia. And I rode horses as a kid. my father rodeo'd towards the end of the 60s, they started importing quarter horses into Australia. And so he got to be around the quarter horses because of the time events. were roping and steer wrestling and that sort of thing. And so when we started riding, we started on ponies. And by the time we got to horses, we were riding.
We had quarter horses and we showed at the quarter horse shows, did all the, you know, the Western event things.
Speaker 2 (44:56)
Okay. And then what brought you to the United States?
Speaker 1 (44:58)
I wanted to come over for a year just to learn more about training horses, especially the raining horses. I wanted to learn how to train the rainers.
So I can go home and train my own horses. And so initially it was just a year, I was here for a year and I was gonna go home and not have come back again. And the trainer I was working for when I, the day I left, we shook hands on his porch when I was going to leave and he said, you know, if you want to come back, I'll give you a job. He said, you could do this for a living if you wanted to. And you know, country boy from Australia, I'd never even thought of that.
And so, and I'd met my wife, Robyn, in the meantime.
she ran like a scolded cat. I chased her for a year and didn't catch her. But went back to Australia and then I think when I went back to Australia she kind of missed me chasing her around so then the letters got a little nicer. I had two reasons to come back, the job offer and that.
Yeah, I back to work for him for a couple of years and then we got married and so then I went out and went out on my own.
been in the San Francisco Bay area, so I've always been, you know, I was in the East Bay when I was first here, and now we're in the South Bay. We're down in the bottom end of Silicon Valley.
What's interesting is this was all ranch land before, know, old Spanish land grant stuff. And this town, when I first met Robin about 29 years ago, it was probably about 10,000 people, but now it's a satellite community, it's a bedroom community for Silicon Valley. So there's probably 40,000 people in there. This county used to have more cows than...
people in it. But this, we're not very far from where the Donches were in Salinas, but they've all been around, all worked around here. Joe Walters worked on, like I can see a ranch out my window here that Joe Walters worked on. We used to have a picture of one of the, like that backdrop you've got behind you, we've got a backdrop for the horse expos and one of the pictures on them was a picture of my wife and I with those hills in the background and I was at horse expo in Canada one time and Pat Prelly walked up the booth and he goes,
Speaker 2 (46:39)
So.
Speaker 1 (46:54)
He looks at the hills and he goes, that's in Hollister. And I said, yeah, and he goes, I've worked in that ranch.
Speaker 2 (46:58)
That's pretty neat to have all that history surrounding the area that you're in.
Speaker 1 (47:02)
Yeah, some of the first rain cow horse competitions were actually at our local fairgrounds here back in the. think, you know, this was all Spanish land grant stuff and there were a lot of a lot of like the carers around here at the, some point in time. Our local fair here, they have a figure eight roping. It's the only place in the world they have it. We have a figure eight roping. Yeah. They have a competition here and there's.
Speaker 2 (47:24)
have. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:27)
there's 20 year old guys around here who can do it. In other places, there's probably only really old guys who do it, but they've kept the tradition going here. so they rope around the horns and they figure eight and they catch their front feet. So when you do it, I think you get five points for catching everything. One point for catching the horn or one front foot, think, if I'm not correct, maybe two, and then zero if you only get the horns or you miss.
Speaker 2 (47:50)
Huh, you have a lot of that Makaro tradition. just.
Speaker 1 (47:53)
In this area, they really strike out here, they do.
Speaker 2 (47:56)
Yeah. Interesting. have you met any kind of older type fellows in the area that, you know, that they have parents and grandparents that, that were Viceros that they had stories that they've shared or is it?
Speaker 1 (48:09)
Not a lot of them. I wouldn't say a lot of them. I know some people who have told me old stories about...
back in the old days here, but no, I haven't heard a lot of them. There's a really good museum underneath the grandstand out at the fairgrounds out here that's got some really cool old pictures and old saddles and old bits and stuff. It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:27)
Yeah, their tack was beautiful. mean, it was that was that was their showpiece, you know, they. So you just you just got over doing the World of Crest Green Games. Can you can you tell us the story about that and the horses that went and
Speaker 1 (48:46)
Yeah, so we moved back to Australia in 2006, between 2006 and 2010 we were living in Australia and while we there we helped organise Australia's first reigning team for the World of Question Games and it was in Lexington, Kentucky and we thought that would be a one-off, like we'd never get to do that again. And then last year they're going have the World of Question Games, they had the World of Question Games here in the US and so we thought we'd try for it again. know, there was...
There's, you know, I hadn't been competing in the reigning for about four years. My wife still had been. And there's a lot of Australians, both who live here in the US and are in Australia, who are way better at the reigning than either of us. But it just turned out that they weren't going to be able to qualify as it because it's a journey is not the word I'm looking for.
It's a big deal to get qualified. It takes a lot of effort, time, money, the whole thing. And so I'd already decided I wasn't traveling to clinics last year. And so I had the opportunity to do that. we both qualified and made the team for that. then so the horses we took, owned both of them. One, Robin's horse was the oldest horse at Wig. It was the oldest running horse at Wig. And mine, I think, was one of the...
one of the older ones there, but they're probably the only two running horses at Wig who weren't clipped and had bite marks on them because they live in a past together. can see the two of them right outside our kitchen window here right now. Yeah. And so, sorry, the dogs are whining. And so, yeah, so they were, it was good to go and compete and...
and can show that you can have that relationship thing with a competition horse, you know what
Speaker 2 (50:30)
I think that's hard for trainers that are out there that are trying to find that, you does it have to just be one way or the other? Does it have to be, just focus on the relationship piece and, you know, only be that or can it actually be both? And I know that's an internal struggle I've had at times is, you do you have to pick?
one or the other or can it just be something that can be that can be both and you've proved it can be it can be both.
Speaker 1 (51:05)
Yeah, I mean, think, you know, with those two horses, was doable. it was pretty amazing. So we had help from Jane Pike with the mental side of the whole thing. you know, when we went there, our team coach or our chef de quip, as they call them, he said, so what do think you guys can score on these two horses? You know, everything works out. If you're good, they're good, they're prepared, right? Everything goes right in the day.
Both Robin and I said, we can probably, you know.
2.17 and a half, know, it should be 72 and a half under all three judges. We thought we could do that. And so then we won the first round. I was 2.17, Robin was a 2.18 and they have, the first round is the team competition. So they award the team medals from that. And then the top 15 of that go directly to the individual finals. And then the next 20, so from 16 to 35, they go back to the semifinals and the top five out of them go back to the, back to the finals. And you know,
we never even thought about making the semi-finals, which we did. I made the semi-finals in last place and Robyn was like second last place. And then we came back in and we bettered our scores by, so I was a 220 the second time around and Robyn was a 220 and a half. And that was way better than we thought we could ever do. So they're our highest scores ever on the biggest stage ever. And... ⁓
Robin was the, Sir Robin didn't make it back to the finals. She was in sixth place and I was in seventh. So we almost made it back to the finals on our little cheapy backyard horses here, know. But the big, the big part of it was the mental coaching that Jane Pike had given us leading up to it. That was the thing. Like I've never been, I've never been that relaxed competing ever, leaving it a small show. was just, everything was like, we were just in the zone, like.
in the state of flow, like everything was crystal clear and yeah was great, it was a great experience.
Speaker 2 (52:55)
pretty cool that you were able to achieve that level mentally in a high pressure situation because that
Speaker 1 (53:03)
The thing is,
I showed better than I've ever shown before and I haven't shown for four years. It's not the physical thing that you need, it's that mental thing. Jane, her coaching during the year, one of the things she she did a Zoom call like this and she asked us some questions. And some of those questions sounded like they're about self-limiting beliefs, those sorts of things.
But then she made this audio for us to listen to, different one for me than for Robin. And you have to listen to it with stereo headphones. And it's about half an hour long. And when it starts out, the first 10 minutes is Jane talking in both ears. But after about 10 minutes, this Jane keeps talking and a different Jane starts over here. And so there's these two voices in your ears. And you can't listen to both at the same time. You can only listen to one. But apparently I found out later that it's actually a hypnotism thing and it gets into your subconscious. And so,
When I competed the first time at the World of Question Games, it was different. Like something felt different that I've never felt before and I wasn't sure what it was. And then when I compete the second time, I came in, it like, that was different. And then I realized what was different was that little crappy voice in the back of your head that says, you're not good enough. What are you doing here? Who do you think you are? You suck. Whatever. Wasn't there anymore. And that's the first time I actually realized it had been there. So it's
been there all the time in the background playing so much that you're not even consciously aware of it. So I wasn't aware of it until it wasn't there.
Speaker 2 (54:25)
That's so interesting. She almost she bypassed maybe I don't know if I'm getting this right, but sounds like she bypassed your ability to listen to what she was saying and compute it logically and go put it through all your filters and and and instead she just basically implanted it right in your head.
Speaker 1 (54:42)
Yeah, that's the second, the other voice, you can only listen to one of them and they're both saying the same type of stuff, but maybe using different words and different sentence structures or whatever. whichever one you're listening to, the one you're not listening to is going into your subconscious. it was, yeah, Robin had the same experience. Like we were both completely in the zone. And that's, you know, that's probably going to be my my last brain competition. You know, I really
Not that interested in competing in that these days, but it was, it was amazing just having that experience of, that was the world of question games. Yeah. But just having that experience of, of that state of flow that I've never felt before in a high pressure and I've never felt in any situation, it was a high pressure situation. And yeah, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty amazing, but that really helped me with that whole, you know, I tell that story a lot to people because one of the other things that I
done that year was that whole non-judgment thing. know, that counting judgmental thoughts and being aware of judgmental thoughts and then reframing those thoughts. And so I think all of that was a part of it, but definitely Jane's coaching was a big part of it. Jane, a lot of her coaching is for people who have fear around writing, but she also does the competition stuff too.
Speaker 2 (55:51)
Interesting. Yeah, the fear thing around riding is such an important thing for people to be able to work on away from the horse and, and deal with and that's that comes up so regularly for people. And they often feel not only the fear of the actual fear they're experiencing, but the fear of even letting other people know that they're fearful, you know, it's the stigma that's attached to it. And it's okay to be scared.
And people like her, I'd love to maybe get in touch with her and see if we can maybe get her in the next year, because it sounds like she's got some. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that's such a huge, I mean, that's just such a huge piece of the puzzle for some, all of us, I guess. I mean, we all have fears, let's face it.
Speaker 1 (56:24)
She's amazing, yeah.
Yes, I think a lot of times people have trouble with their horses because they're afraid, but they don't want to admit they're afraid. there's some sort of an excuse there, they're blaming the horse, but he won't do this, he won't do that. And all the problems are coming from the fact that they're afraid, but won't admit they're afraid. And Jane talks a lot about, she says, the whole fake it till you make it thing is crap. Because it doesn't work with horses. So these days they use horses a lot for equine assistance.
therapy, sorts of things, corporate team building stuff like that. And one of the things I think that horses are good for that stuff is because they're very good at detecting incongruent behavior. When you're in a landscape and you're at a landscape, don't line up. And when you pretend you're not afraid, but you're afraid, I think it makes them.
react worse than if you just said, I'm afraid. Because you don't have that incongruency. If you're worried on the inside and you tell them, you admit that you're worried on the outside, it's a completely different feeling than if you are.
fearful on the inside and you're trying to do your best to put on a brave face, because that just makes you a liar. And I think that makes them a little bit, learned about being around you. And I don't know if this is true, but I've been using this story in clinics lot lately. I say, know, I think the reason horses are very good at detecting incongruent behavior. If you've ever watched like a National Geographic thing and there's a herd of zebra and there's a lion walking past and he's walking past and he's thinking,
I'm going to walk past and go to the water hole. Okay. What he's showing on the outside is showing an insight that if that lion said, I'm going to walk past, but really I'm thinking about trying to get one of these things, these zebras here, that whole energy would be completely different. And I think that's the thing they really have evolved to attune to is that incongruent behavior. I'm going to pretend I'm walking past, but really I'm trying to eat one of you guys. And I think.
that energy, can pick up on that really easy and it makes them uneasy. They can't relax that way and a lot of people have trouble, know, most horse problems arise from anxiety. Those horses are not able to just be relaxed around people and I think a lot of times the whole physiological and mental thing of what the person's doing, not what they're doing as in the movements they're making, just the energy coming off of them is a big part of that.
Speaker 2 (58:57)
Yeah, cool. think so too. I think so too. This has been great Warwick. You've got so much to share. So much just super valuable information in this interview for people to just take one piece of it. And I love how earlier you said, you know, start start maybe with meditating and only do two minutes. So it's not like we have to go in there and just like try to make all of these changes.
if we can make one little change, you know, like your non-judgment thing, it was one little change. And then you notice what happens, you know, that awareness too, right, that you talked to. So you notice what happens with that one little, little piece. And then now you've got momentum in the right direction. So you can start to build on that. And you can, you know, add, like you said, if you're doing 20 minutes, do another 20. So if you're doing two minutes, do four. But,
that's, it's, it's so cool that, that we can find this and we can make these changes incrementally and enjoy the journey, enjoy the process as we're doing it so that it's something that, that permeates again into our being, right, into our lives. And it makes us better people overall. And that's really for the horse fair. That's been my, my goal is I want, it all starts with us.
Right? So if we can be better people, then our horses are better. And if we're better people, then the world is better. If we can continue to develop and spread this knowledge and like you said earlier too, you can't judge. So everybody's on a different part of their journey and they're going to resonate with certain presenters more than others. And that's going to work for them and their horse right then and there. That's good.
Speaker 1 (1:00:20)
second.
Speaker 2 (1:00:40)
because it's starting them on a path. And at least if you take one foot forward onto a path, now you're going somewhere. And then more comes available to us, right? And we can start to, you know, as we grow and change and we find more meaning in certain things, it's going to take us on another path. And then our job is like you're doing, you're sharing it. So you're sharing it with people to help people grow on their journey and in their in their path.
without judging where they're at because we're all at where we're at, just like our horses are because of our life experiences. We're all just wanting to be better and survive better and be okay. And so I just, can't thank you enough for sharing all of this because it's so valuable.
Speaker 1 (1:01:26)
Well, yeah, I'm passionate about sharing it because once I discovered how valuable it was for me, it's like, kind of valuable for everybody.
Speaker 2 (1:01:34)
Yeah. So and I appreciate everybody for joining us today. Thank you for being here. And, and spread the word, you know, help let other people know about the fair about Warwick, and about how they can just through learning and experimenting and non judgment, try to find what works best for them and their horse, maybe try to bring up that inner 10 year old child, right?
Speaker 1 (1:01:57)
big part but you know I think to do that 10 year old girl stuff you have to you have to get rid of expectations and you have to get rid of judgments and you have to be present you know someone once when I coined the term 10 year old girl training couple years ago someone sent me a picture of their son and they said doing some four-year-old boy training and the horse was standing independent and the boy was off
riding his bicycle around or whatever. And I said, no, that's not really 10 year old girl training. 10 year old girl training is you are with your horse and you are right there. You can see every hair in his mane. You're not doing something else. I said, the four year old boy was just riding his bike around and the horse happened to be near there, but he had no idea the horse was even alive sort of thing. think the 10 year old girl training is just, know, 10 year old girls just hang out with their horses and tell them all their deepest, darkest secrets. yeah, they just kind of really
present and open with them.
Yeah, that's, you know, I met an old guy last year who was friends with Tom and Bill, Dorrance. And I think this story was about Tom coming to visit him one day, but he's in our trains cutting horses, this guy. And Tom, hadn't seen Tom for a few years and Tom came to visit him and he pulled up out the front of the barn and came in the barn and they sat down to have a chat. So this, in this barn, there is a barn cat. a wild barn cat.
black and white and this guy said, I know it's black and white but I have not ever seen it for long enough to tell you if it has a black patch on its left eye or a white patch on its right hip, you know, he just kind of flits from here to there like wild barn cats do. And he said, we sat down and started talking and about half an hour later that cat flitted across the end of the barn aisle. I don't usually see him in middle of the day but that's Then,
10 minutes later, 20 minutes later, was sitting at the end of the barn aisle, which he said, it's the first time I've ever looked at him and laid eyes on him and seen he's got a black patch on his left eye. And then half an hour later, he was half way down the barn aisle and they kept chatting. And half an hour later, he was over rubbing his head on Tom's leg. And he said, Tom stayed for two days and his cat followed him around like a dog for two days. And then when Tom left, the cat went back to being feral. And he said, he didn't look at it, touch it, back into it, say anything to it. There's just something about him.
that that cat, and I imagine every other animal, was attracted to. And I think it's figuring out what that thing is. Well, it's not necessarily figuring out what it is, because that's having expectations, but just allowing, you know what I mean? Letting that happen, letting yourself be in that space, I think is the key to the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (1:04:28)
Yeah, knowing that that's available, just like knowing the people, and I don't remember where it was, but that we're out in the jungle, knowing that that's available. So now we can be allowing it in. And if you don't know it's available, sometimes it's hard to allow it because we just don't even think it's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (1:04:49)
Right. And I think, you know, I think these days I'm really into a lot of scientific stuff these days, quantum physics, you type stuff, but what's cool these days is, you know, if things like functional MRIs, things like that, so they can map people's brains activity while things are in real time, while things are happening. And so they can almost quantify the spiritual sort of stuff. You know what I mean? And so you can actually see the science of
when your brain's thinking this, this happens to your body, they can detect energy in your body, your horse can detect that energy. And so, you know, you really get to...
be aware that your horse consents, know, your thoughts and your energy and all that sort of stuff. It's no longer, oh, well, I'll just take a leap of faith and believe it now. It, you know, it's quantifiable. Have you ever heard of the Heart and Mouth Institute?
Speaker 2 (1:05:39)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (1:05:39)
And so, yeah, so they're actually very far from you, but that that whole heart rate variability thing that's popping up in everything these days. You know, the Navy SEALs work on heart rate.
Speaker 2 (1:05:50)
Huh?
Speaker 1 (1:05:50)
There's a boo.
Stealing Fire and the subtitle is how Silicon Valley Navy SEALs and rogue entrepreneurs are changing the way we live and work. Fascinating book, it's written by Steven Cottis who wrote a book called The Rise of Superman a few years ago. I know if you read that one, it was about achieving the flow state. This book talks about a lot of things but it talks quite a bit about that heart rate variability thing. I was in the UK recently doing some clinics and before I left the UK I went to this one day seminar in London by these couple of
guys who were like spiritual scientists, you know, they can prove the power of thoughts and all that sort of stuff. And they did an experiment where they said there's 500 people there and they got this one girl up on stage and hook up a heart rate variability monitor, you know, they clip it on your ear. And then we all did this heart, this heart math meditation, all 500 of us. And this girl got her heart rate coherence to a hundred percent.
on stage in front of 500 people. And I think it might've been the community, you know, the vibe there too, but yeah, it was very, very cool. Her heart rate was still 120. So she was still highly stressed about being in front of all those people, but her heart rate variability was 100%, which means you're in a totally relaxed state. So yeah, it was pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (1:07:05)
this pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much so much out there to play around with, I guess and, and experiment with that's
Speaker 1 (1:07:12)
Let me show you a little gadget.
So this is called a MUSE, it's a brain sensing headband.
Speaker 2 (1:07:17)
I've heard of these.
Speaker 1 (1:07:18)
and
then put it on like this over your ears and then it hooks to an app on your phone and you have earphones in there and you meditate with it. And the thing about meditating is you don't know if you're doing it right. So what this thing does is you can choose the sounds. I've got it on rainforest. And so if your mind is kind of scattered, you hear a shhh heavy rain. And if your mind gets quite clear, you hear really light rain on leaves.
And then if you get really in a meditative state, birds chirp, like the sun's come out and birds are chirping. And it's good. I think it's great because you don't know if your meditation practice is actually working on it. Am I getting it? know what mean? And so that actually gives you feedback on feedback on what's going on. it's stuff, things like that these days, you know, like we have so much technology.
that's bad for us, like being addicted to the new phone. But there's also a lot of technology like that that's really good for us, because it can really help us tell if we're on like that heart rate, you know, that heart rate variability thing, or the things like that muse, they really tell us if we're on the right track. you know, then you know what changes you need to make if you need to make some.
Speaker 2 (1:08:21)
Yep.
Right. And then you're not interrupting your meditation wondering if you're meditating.
Speaker 1 (1:08:34)
Well,
that's the thing when I first started using that theme and I said, you know, if you hear birds then you're in a really good place. So I'm listening to it heavy rain. I'm trying to get the heavy rain to go away and the rain gets lighter. And then I hear some birds and I'm like, I got the birds. So you've to be able to take the feedback of the birds telling you in the right place without actually judging that you're now in the right place.
Speaker 2 (1:08:47)
You
Right?
Speaker 1 (1:08:57)
It takes a little bit of work to ignore the birds but I had a girl at a horse expo recently come by the booth and saying, I've tried to, and she seemed like she was kind of an anxious type. She said, I've tried meditating. I just, I just, I just can't, I just can't meditate. And I said, well, how have you tried to meditate? She goes, well, I sit down and I try to be really relaxed. No, that's not meditating. That's what happened when you can meditate. She said, I just.
Speaker 2 (1:09:21)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (1:09:23)
And I've had a lot of people say this, I just can't do it because I just can't stop my mind from wandering off. And I said, okay, there's the problem right there is it's not about stopping your mind from wandering off. It's bringing it back when you notice it's wandered off. It's gonna wander off. You you're, you're, you're judging yourself too much saying, I can't do this. It's not working. I said that everybody's mind wanders off. It's just your job to just bring it back.
It's not supposed to stay there. said, it's like dressage. It's how many transitions you can do that's important. It's not staying at the trot or staying at the walk. It's the transitions that's the big deal. And it's the same thing with your meditation. A lot of people are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. So it's just their perception of.
Speaker 2 (1:09:56)
you
Speaker 1 (1:10:10)
their meditation practice more so than their meditation practice, you know what mean? So it's, once again, it comes back to that judgment thing.
in 600 BC, a Chinese philosopher named Lao Tzu said, if you're depressed, you're living in the past and if you're anxious, living in the future. And if you are peaceful, you're living in the present. And what I found with horses is,
If you're having problems with them, they're either one or the other. so, you know, horses that are anxious, you know, their heads up, they're looking around, they're like, am I going to have to run? Am I going to have to go and save my life? You know, they're in that sympathetic nervous system. Do I have to? So that's one of the things, or if you've got a horse that's shut down, you've just been too obedient, which is, was very good at that in the past. It's getting them so obedient. They just kind of go inside their head there. And I think that's more like depression in humans and the key to
both of those, you know, if you go to a therapist for other anxiety and depression, it's working on being present. If you go to a therapist for either of those things, you're take up a mindfulness practice, take up meditation practice as part of the thing. And I think a lot of the work I've been doing with horses these days is basically teaching them how to meditate. I not teaching them how to meditate, but it's just about not so much what they're doing physically, but just trying to get their attention.
And what I found is if you can get their attention, which we didn't get to right here, be present for just a split second and then wait, just wait, just be present with them. They'll have these big old licks and shoes. I think a lot of horses, like if they're a problem horse, they're usually quite anxious, but the horses that aren't a problem, but are kind of shut down a bit.
those ones are like being depressed, it's the, think the key to both of them is being able to get them to be present. So the, the, the shutdown ones, they're probably a bit more difficult because you can't ask for their attention because anytime you ask them for anything, that's going to go further inside. But the, anxious ones just getting their attention. So, you know, I used to use them, the flag and stuff. I used to use the flag, you know, like say to move behind them, I used to use it to move behind them.
I don't so much anymore. I only use the flag towards the hind end to get their thoughts to come back to that side of the body. But when their thoughts come back to the hind end, we'll move over, but I'm not really working on the physical part. I'm working on the mental part. And when you can get there, because you can get them to move over physically and mentally stay either in their head or their ears over there, you know, and I found that
using the flag to draw their thoughts to you rather than using the flag to ask them to do something physically. For me, it's been a game changer. Really, it's basically the same as the meditation thing. It's bringing the, just like a guided meditation. One of the guided meditations I've got, it's a British guy. So he goes, if you've noticed that your mind is wandered, that's okay. That's what minds do. Just bring your attention back to your breathing.
I do a lot of ground work with horses. These days, for me, it's all about can I either get their attention or their awareness? Like the shutdown ones, those ones are the really shut down. There's not a lot you can do with those by asking them to do stuff, because they will physically do it. Usually they're quite obedient. They'll physically do it, but they stand inside their head. And a little thing I've been doing with them lately, I've had quite a few at clinics that were really obedient, but kind of in their head.
You just come up beside them, just start scratching them on the neck, trying to find their itchy spot. And their eyes will be kind of turned away from you. And their ears will be over here and they're kind of like, this is not happening. This is not happening. This is not happening. And if they like turn an ear, I'll stop and step back. If they look at you, I'll stop and step back. it's, I'm not scratching them because it feels good. I want to scratch on them until I can, all I want to do is let, have them make a change for the.
positive and positive and I don't want to step back to kind of show them that I recognize that, you know what mean? And it's been amazing. there's an old Ray Hunt saying, they know when you know and they know when you don't. And for the longest time, I thought that meant they know when you know what you're doing and they know when you don't know what you're doing. Now they can tell if you're a gunslinger right off the bat, which is true. But then...
Couple of years ago was reading an article and I thought it was by Joe Walter but then I saw him recently and asked him and it wasn't him who said the article so I don't know who was but it someone who was around Ray and they said when you're around your horse you need to be aware of what his ears are doing, what his eyes are doing, what his muzzle is doing, what his lips are doing, what his breathing is doing, what his back's doing, what his neck's doing, what his tail's doing, is it clamped, is it up, is it down? Because they know when you know and they know when you don't and that whole
scratch him on the neck thing is when they turn to look at you and I step back, I don't stop scratching him because it was nice and I'm trying to keep it from you or something, rather. It's a way of telling them, I saw a shift in your thoughts right then. And I think that's the absolute key is telling them how aware you are. It's not necessarily telling them to do stuff or asking them to do stuff. I may ask them to do stuff, but for me, it's,
been a total shift from obedience stuff to connection stuff to where a lot of the things I ask a horse to do, I only ask him to do it so I can tell him how observant of little changes I am. It's got less to do with the thing you're asking him to do. I don't know if that's making sense to you or not, but that's where I'm at now and it's made the huge difference, especially with horses that are really shut down.
Speaker 2 (1:15:38)
Yeah. No, I like that I had a experience when I was in my teens. I thought I was a great trainer and you know, I had my horses jumping bridle-less and laying down and bowing and rearing and all this stuff. And I had a thoroughbred that I was having a really, his name was Grumpy. He came with a name and he was Hart. I was struggling with him and he was bucking in the canter and that sort of thing. And I was doing a clinic with Lee Smith. don't know if you know Lee. Yeah. And
Speaker 1 (1:16:00)
I don't know either, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (1:16:03)
So she was at my parents farm and, you I kind of wanted to show what I was doing. I respected her a lot and, you know, I wanted to show her what I was doing with Grumpy because I still was thinking I was doing okay, even though I was having some trouble. And we're all kind of gathered up around visiting in the morning, how you do at a clinic, you know, and she was telling some stories. And then she had us direct our horses focused and she had us directed a little left, directed a little right. And
thought I was doing okay, you know, my horse was looking where I wanted him to go. And she, she looked at me and she just she looked down and she just, you can see what he's thinking that she's shaking her head. And I was kind of, you know, little unsure and, Lee Lee comes up to me still shaking her head and she's like, I have your lead rope. So yeah, sure. And she said, you saw what just happened, right? And I said, Yeah, and I handed her my horses, lead rope and he was just him with her. But then
All of a sudden the switch flipped and his head came up. You can see him kind of lift his chest. His ears were forward. Yeah, she did a couple little things to get this, ears were forward and he, you know, he's like, hi, Lee's looking at her and, and she's like over there, you know, and, Lee just takes a finger over there and he looks, you know, with his ears up and eyes bright. And, and she looks at me and she said, you saw that right. I'm like,
saw that. That's what I was doing, you know, maybe just a little more feel there, you know, but was that what I was doing? And she had me had him look the other way and he looks and then she's like, you saw that, right? And I said, Yes, you know, I saw that. And she hands me back the lead rope. And my horse goes back to looking like he normally looks. But now I saw that. And basically, it was like what you're talking about, eyes glazed over, you know, just shut down just
And it was like, probably one of the most humiliating moments in my life. I was mortified. I was terribly, I just, I just felt terrible. But it was like the best, the best lesson reflecting back. was like that epiphany moment, best lesson that I could have ever had because I just learned that I was training my horses all this time, but that had no meaning to my horses whatsoever. Nothing whatsoever. So yeah, I was a good trainer.
But is that really what I was looking to be? so I know exactly what you're saying is totally clear. I know exactly what you're saying because it's, hopefully people can maybe through hearing my story too understand what you're saying. it is, it's pretty profound when they're this, you know, what do you have to offer? What are we doing next friend versus
I'll just do it, you know.
Speaker 1 (1:18:42)
I've got a, I've got a horse named Bundy and he's been a lot of my YouTube videos and stuff like that. And Bundy was very obedient and does exactly what I want. And, uh, but he had no expression anymore. You know, he would do whatever I wanted to do. He'd stand all day, canter, and you can do whatever you want with him, but there was no expression there. And it was because I, you know, I hadn't been connecting with him. just been training him and he was.
and I do quite a few clinics and get to interact with lot of horses. He was one of the hardest ones I had because he wasn't shut down to where...
He didn't respond. He was responsive and stuff. This wasn't he. He was just like obedient and he was really, really hard to get back.
to where he had this, now you walk up to him and he's like, hey, how you going, sort of thing. But it was really, it took quite a bit of work. And there were times when, you I was trying to, I was trying to convey to him how I was listening. And he actually, a few times he, I think he was testing me, like he lunged at me with his teeth bared. And I think it was a test to see what I'd do. Are you really changed? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (1:19:51)
Okay.
Speaker 1 (1:19:51)
I didn't do anything to him. didn't step backwards. just kind of, you know, I made a great deal of energy here, but didn't direct it at him. I didn't attack him.
And then, you know, and after a couple of times that he was like, okay, I really think what he was doing was like, okay, if I do this, are you going to be really firm with me? Because you're trying to tell me you're someone you, you're trying to tell me you've changed. Have you really changed? That's the way I looked at that. And I found that I think when you tell them, when you first start telling them that you're listening, don't be surprised if they tell you some stuff that you don't want to hear.
You might not think you wanted to tell you that, but you've kind of got to be... Don't just tell me the good stuff, tell me all the stuff. I think you've got to get to that point. Then you'll get through that, you've got to... Because it can't be back to obedience. And I want you to tell me, but just only tell me good things.
Speaker 2 (1:20:44)
Right.
Speaker 1 (1:20:45)
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about with that there that yeah, that's so that's the thing I've really tried to with every interaction nowadays.
making sure that if I see anything going towards that, I can't finish the interaction till we're back here again. So I've got to change my approach or whatever it is I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (1:21:03)
Yeah, no, that's cool. I think that's a a great message to leave people, people with. It's all about this. Then the physical responses come.
Speaker 1 (1:21:11)
Yeah, but you can't, you know, the thing about this with the horses is you can't.
Unless you're really present, can't notice that. Because it's not the whole, it's not the horse moving from the horse's body moving from here to there. It might be the eye just turning a little bit or just one ear having a bit of a flick. And if you are not present, you don't notice it. And especially if you're, you know, if you've got an agenda like, well, when we get this done, I'm going to do something else. You just have to be right there. And I really think that the whole being right there thing is probably the biggest part of horses feeling of safety.
is you know they can tell if you're present and if you're not present then well I've got to look out for danger because you're not you're not part of my herd whereas if you're really present and aware of things I think that that gives them a sense of security you just can't train into them.
Speaker 2 (1:21:58)
Yeah, definitely.
Well, thank you Warwick for being here.
Speaker 1 (1:22:01)
no worries at all. This is,
this is every time I have conversations like this, they're going forever. You know who Patrick King is?
Speaker 2 (1:22:07)
They do. do.
I do. I don't know. I haven't done anything with them, so I don't know terribly much about him, but my mom's written with him.
Speaker 1 (1:22:17)
We would have conversations with Patrick King, but he has a podcast and he had me on his podcast one night and the podcast recording part of it went for two hours and then we stopped there, but then we're still on the phone and we talked for another two hours. It was one o'clock in the morning where he was and he had to get up and go to the airport at like five o'clock or something or other, but yeah, it was like a four hour conversation.
Speaker 2 (1:22:37)
these are the best because it's I mean there's just there's so many layers and so much depth and so many places you can take it and and it's it's fun because because it just fires you all up inside and it gets you
Speaker 1 (1:22:54)
Yeah,
it's not, you know, it's, it's not really about horse training. think the horses are just a facilitator for, you know, they're the thing that I think nobody, you know, nobody comes to, no one goes to a clinic because they want to go, I want to, I want to experience some personal growth because that sucks. That's no fun. But they go to a clinic and they go, I want to, I want to solve this issue with my horse. And a lot of times in the
to solve the issue with the horse, you have to probably make some changes. And I think that's the cool part is we all want to get along with our horses better and the horses present a kind of a challenge that if we want them to be better, we kind of have to be better. So the whole world wins, you know what I mean? But no one signs up for this stuff on their own. I think the horses are the ones that pushes towards it.
Speaker 2 (1:23:41)
think so too. I think they're leading the way more than we know. Yeah. Well, good. Well, I think we'll wrap it up as as at this and thank you everyone for being here. Warwick, if you want to say goodbye to everybody.
Speaker 1 (1:23:45)
We really believe so.
Yes, I'd love to say goodbye. Thanks so much for listening and hopefully you guys are thinking about getting your meditation practice started. All right.
Speaker 2 (1:24:02)
Alright, so thank you all for being here and have a great rest of your day.
