Speaker 3 (00:35)
So welcome, everybody. ⁓ Jack and I are here today with Jason Irwin. And he's going to tell us a little bit about his family's business, which is pretty cool. They they're raising horses up in Ontario, Canada. Him and his wife Bronwyn are on the road much of the year they go to different expos around the world, sharing their horsemanship and
Speaker 1 (00:57)
They also
Speaker 3 (00:57)
Lots
of clinics around the world. So they're busy people. And that coupled with the livestock business that they've got where they're raising horses and some Angus cattle, they're really tying all the different kind of pieces of the business together. So Jason, welcome. It's good to have you here today.
Speaker 2 (01:16)
Great to be here
Speaker 3 (01:17)
Yeah,
yeah. Can you tell us just a little bit about your about your story and how you came to be where you're at here today?
Speaker 1 (01:22)
And.
Speaker 2 (01:25)
Sure thing. Well that took me about five hours. I'll try to give you the 30 second version so nobody falls asleep on us here. But no, my family they had horses and cattle when I was young and I was always sort of just drawn to the horse end of things. And then ⁓ when I was probably 12 years old or something like that there was a fellow that lived not too terribly far from us and he was sort of what you would think of as the real cowboy. He rode in the rodeos at some point and could
kind of hold on to anything and just kind of a bit of a rough tough customer and stuff like that, but very likable. But anyways, the idea was I had a colt and so did my younger brother and we took the horses to him, but the idea was he was going to show us how to start the horses. So that's how we were going to learn this thing here. And I always said afterwards, I never really learned much about horse training from the whole experience because he would put you on the horses and then he would do about everything possible to get you thrown off them.
So he would throw a ball at them when the horse wasn't looking or it just, kind of, basically you're kind of like a cat. You're kind of clinging all the time to your horse worried what was going to happen. So at the end of the day, I didn't really learn much of anything. I don't think, but it did sort of set me on the track. Like it probably gave me some false confidence believing I had actually done this and that. after that we took and I just kind of got into trying to
do it on my own. Like I, I'm sort of aware of the first method wasn't the right method. And I was trying to train my own horses. We always had some young ones coming along. I just kept working on them and trying to refine out what I was doing. And so the, the starting of horses was always kind of where I, I first fit into the horse scheme, I guess, if you want not scheme, but the, the part I was in. But anyways, we went along there and I just kind of kept doing that up until I was in my teenage years.
And during, I'd like to pay for college and that I rode some outside horses for people and things like that. And then right as I got out of college, Canada had a few cases of mad cow disease show up. So what happened there was all of a cattle were worth absolutely nothing. And we had cattle and the horses and the cattle were in the way and the horses were actually doing okay. The ones we raised, we always seemed like we could sell them. And I was always kind of busy working on them. So we took from there and
we started buying horses in the States actually. We'd go to the Southern or the Western USA and buy a load of horses and take them home again. And then we would work on them and then train them and then sell them and then we'd go do it again. And it really, it went from being something that we kind of did to being a pretty big deal. We'd be running back and forth all the time and we'd buy anywhere from eight to 10 at a shot and then come home and be putting the training on them. And really, as far as anything that made the difference for me, I think that was
probably the biggest thing as far as what made me into the trainer that I guess you'd say I am, whether that's good or bad, that's for someone else to judge, but that was the biggest influence by far. And I really noticed I got to spend a time around some really good horse people, but they were usually ranchers or people that would train and sell their own horses. And I found they were a lot more down to earth and practical than some of the clinicians that I had tried to study. And not that I'm knocking clinicians because I am one, but
Something I found quite a bit was the clinicians would sometimes tell you the flowery, lovey-dovey way around everything, or you'd ask them a question and they'd give you a lot of philosophy as the answer. And I was kind of always like, I need something that I can actually do. don't need a theory. I need something practical. So anyways, I would take our horses and I was always studying the trainers and I was asking all the questions I could from these people.
and I was really trying to put together a program that would work for almost any horse. And I think something else that helped me was I rode so many horses in that time period that I got where I could get on a random horse that, whether it was a training horse or a customer horse or whoever. And I could usually get along with them pretty fast because I had so much experience riding so many different horses. And then I went along like that for quite a while and we bought hundreds and hundreds of horses.
that way and we always tried to have really good horses and we tried to put a really good handle on them so that people would come back and see us again. And it seemed like it worked really well, but during that time period we were also always kind of increasing our own breeding program. So today we don't really do much as far as buying horses to train and sell anymore just because we raise enough of our own. And then, from there I took and some family friends of ours, they asked me if I would do a clinic one time and I'd ask,
I'd been asked about clinics before, but it was always kind of in passing and I never really took it all that seriously. I thought I would do clinics eventually, but didn't really know how to get started. But they wanted to hire me to do a clinic. So I did it and it seemed like it went over pretty well. The people in it told friends who told friends who hired me to do other clinics. And then that really took off for me. My first year I did two clinics. My second year I did like 22 or 23. And that, so it was a fairly good jump in a 12 month period.
and stuff like that. that was kind of, it was sort of obvious you should probably follow that path a little bit in there. and then I do a lot of clinics with my wife. She's, she's really good in a lot of areas. She's good with, she's really good with people. And just when she works with people and horses, she seems like if they're struggling and the horse is struggling, she can still find a path, the path of least resistance.
and get things done in a smooth way. So she's tremendous on that end of things. And ⁓ she does some clinics of her own and then I do some of my own and then sometimes we do them together just sort of depending what the topic is and kind of how far we have to go to the clinics and things like that. And then, ⁓ we do some other things too. Like we were, I started entering a few cold starting competitions a few years ago and
Those were really good thing for us. I got to go to some of the expos and I got to meet a lot of the famous trainers and people. So was really sort of exciting for me because you were suddenly standing beside the people that you'd read about in the books and things like that. And ⁓ that was really interesting. And then the expo thing we took a little farther and now we go to some of the big expos and present clinics on quite a variety of topics and stuff like that. So we're kind of a little bit of everything.
Speaker 1 (07:27)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:28)
Yeah, that's the that's the thing with quality horsemanship that it allows you to do just a little bit of everything because it applies right What's your favorite favorite thing to do with horses when
Speaker 1 (07:35)
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:40)
⁓ That's hard to answer. Well, actually I started out with starting colts. So that was kind of where again, it's sort of where I came from and a lot of times though I'd be riding colts and after a while it does start to feel like the same thing all the time. Like you're riding 10 colts a day, you're starting them all off at the same point and that's why I was always then trying to learn how to do move up the ladder and become good at putting advanced maneuvers on horses and things like that.
And then the funny thing is now with the clinics and the expo and stuff like that, now I've kind of reverted back to the cold starting thing again, just because that is quite popular at the events. And I do enjoy it. Like I really have fun with it. that, but there's that, but we do quite a bit of Liberty training and show people how to train Liberty horses. And that's sort of one of those things that in the beginning, I found it really, really frustrating because
you would do something and you think I'm doing a really good job and your horse runs away and you think, that wasn't so good after all. And that, but you catch them again and start again. But once I started to develop a knack for it, then I really found it interesting because it's sort of neat. Like if you can have a horse that all of a comes running across the pasture to come to you and you can signal them and give them, ask them to do all these different maneuvers. And it's kind of hard not to get a bit of a high off that when you've been really studying that your whole life, you've been trying to get good with horses.
And then when you can be giving them cues that no one else can maybe even see what you're doing and your horse is responding accordingly, like that gives you a pretty good feeling.
Speaker 3 (09:03)
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:04)
Because
you're here, you've got the horses, you always hear about like you're talking about going to these clinics and these clinicians will tell you a bit of philosophy or a saying, you know, and then talk about the mind of the horse. And it was always like, what's what is that? But now you've got the tools and now you can physically get it done. And now you've got them. You've got the mind of the horse in a good way. mean,
Speaker 2 (09:24)
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's no, I was gonna say I think there's always sort of a balance and horsemanship between knowing how they think and knowing the philosophies behind the training and being able to do the training itself, because I found a person could be strong in one area and sort of weak in the other. And that's so like, sometimes I'll meet somebody at a clinic, and you know, they've really tried to study horsemanship, and they can recite every theory that's ever been ever anyone's ever come up with.
Speaker 1 (09:26)
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:51)
And that and you know they want to do a good job and that but then when they're working with their horse, you can see pretty quick the problems and that so they've learned the stuff that you can learn through a book or through a or watching somebody else, but they maybe don't know how to apply it. But then you kind of get the other trainers to and not not that I'm trying to knock anybody, but if you try to approach horsemanship, just as if you're a mechanic and pull this rain kick with this leg and everything is just a.
straight down the line method, then that probably doesn't work all that well either. I think a person has to find that balance.
Speaker 1 (10:21)
Yeah. And teaching people, you know, if you had one thing that you really wanted a person to improve on, on themselves, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (10:30)
there's a few things that jumped to mind. Probably the biggest thing would be feel. And, ⁓ I know you folks obviously are going to know what that is, but for anybody that doesn't, it's just sort of being able to respond accordingly to the horse in a smooth way. At least that's the way I look at it. So sometimes again, I'll see somebody and they've learned the technique, but they don't apply it with any finesse. So you'll go out and say motion towards the horse and all of a they
jump up and wave their arm and the horse runs away and stuff like that. You're kind of thinking, well, not quite that much and stuff like that. I think developing the feel and it's one of those things you can't force somebody to learn that because it's something they have to figure out for themselves. But at the same time, you can definitely help them along the path. If you just ask them to jump in the deep end of the pool and swim, then that's pretty hard to do sometimes. But if you can kind of say, no, that's maybe.
a little harder than you need to, or maybe in some cases a little softer than what you need to do. And then once it seems like people had kind of got it right a few times, all of sudden the light bulb goes on and they understand what you were after. And then it kind of gets fun for them. They start to realize maybe things were actually easier than they thought they were. I see a lot of people actually doing too much. They're really trying to get it, but they're going in kind of guns a blazing instead of you kind of have to say, all right, just tone it down a little bit and it'll work fine.
I guess that's probably the first thing that would jump to mind.
Speaker 3 (11:50)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:53)
Yeah, and that's very, very well said. Like you can't show somebody feel maybe you can give them exercises and they can go find it on their own maybe. One thing that we run into with people is you're right exactly right. They want to get it. And they've got the philosophy and they're analytical when they're away from the horse. They watch videos and they
Speaker 3 (12:01)
ahead.
Speaker 1 (12:14)
but they're not always real confident, but they're also not always really in shape. You're in shape to ride Colts, right? So what would you tell people that are maybe physically, they're not there? How do you go about?
Speaker 3 (12:28)
Yeah,
especially right now because right we're in the middle of well, we're kind of like a stay at home order, right? Because quarantine or whatever, are you the same where you're at? Okay, so there's people they can't get to their horses right now. But you know, what would you say as as a rider yourself if riding your whole life, what sorts of things could people be doing right now at home that would help them maybe get in shape or or get ready to go ride their
their horse when they finally can get out to the barn and do so.
Speaker 2 (12:58)
Well, that's actually the we've had quite questions about that. People are saying like, I've been away from my horse for quite a while. And when I go back, I'm nervous. Like, I don't know what's going to happen there. So I kind of, can understand it because you look at it, if you've left a horse off all winter long and you get on them in the spring, you probably want to do a little something before you get on. Like, you know, this isn't going to be great. That's almost like we're going to do, people are doing this twice this year. They got through the winter time and now they have to almost.
away from their horse and start again the second time. But obviously just working on a little bit of fitness at home and stuff like that is a really good thing. at the when they're working with their horses, once they get to do get back to them, I always kind of tell people go back to a place where you are comfortable. So if you're not willing to hop on, which I don't think you should if you don't feel like things are going to work for you. But maybe do groundwork that you are 99.999 % sure you can get it done and have it work well.
and then the next day step it up a little farther from where you were the day before, the next day a little farther. I always say to people, don't go back to the point you left off at, go back about three steps farther back again, and just make sure every step is really solid. And then when they do get on their horses, it maybe doesn't sound very horse whispery, but really my theory there is I think they should saddle them up and work their horses down a fair bit before they put the first few rides back on them. I'd be real tempted to do a couple days of ground work.
but then do a half hour of ground work with the saddle on and then get on for your first ride and err on the, I don't think you need to have the horses huffing and puffing, but I think you kind of want that horse already ready to think, that was a good day. wish, I think we'll call it a day and then start your ride from there because I find when horses are just a little bit tired, they're a lot more forgiving in that. like when they don't really want to react, they don't tend to react very much.
And I always kind of find it funny in our clinics because sometimes we do two day clinics and sometimes we do three day clinics. And the three day clinics are usually the part where this shows up the most. We'll do the first two and a half days and everything's going along really well. But if you start working into the afternoon of the third day, by that point, the horses are kind of tired and the people are tired and nobody's really learning much of anything anyways. So what we'll often do is something just kind of fun. That's a little bit easy for everybody.
So even if it's just people that wanna ride for fun and have never even cantered in their whole life, we'll still set up like a barrel racing pattern or a pole bending pattern or something like that. And then Bron will be showing them how to put their horses on poles or barrels. And a of the people have no intention of ever going on with it. They just wanna do something that's not technical and a little bit exciting. And I always find it funny because on the very first day, almost without a doubt, there'll be quite a few people in the clinic and they're riding with their reins held up like this.
and they're trying to slow their horse down. The more they're trying to pull on them, the more the horse is wanting to go forward. And, but by the time they've ridden them for two days, the horses are tired and the riders have started to need to push them a little bit. And then by the time we get to the fun section, the person that was pulling on their horse and couldn't get, didn't want them to move, all of a goes running by, they're yelling, yeah, and riding a million miles an hour and stuff like this. But their mind is no longer on being scared. It's just on doing the job. And they have a lot of confidence because they've gone from
holding their horse back to asking their horse for more than what he actually wants to give at that point. And that, so I think a lot of it is just get their horse to sort of work down to where they feel comfortable. In some cases, if somebody really had a horse they thought was tough to bring back though, I really don't think it'd be a bad idea to get somebody else to get on for the first few rides if need be. Like it's always a little better to err on the side of caution than not, obviously. But that would be my main things.
for the Rider in Shape part.
I think sometimes too, it's a matter of just asking for a little more. I think sometimes it's pretty easy for a person to get stuck in a rut with their horsemanship. And I know I've done it at times too. I'll go to a certain point and just kind of stay there for a while. And then after a while, you're kind of like, I don't really need to have stayed here. Like I could have done more, I could have moved on with this particular horse. He was willing to give more than what I was asking for. And I think a person needs to constantly be expanding.
just a little bit, they need to be studying a little more horsemanship or they need to be asking their horse for that little bit more than what they have been and just kind of always moving up the ladder a little bit. And I find as they realize that their horse gets better and better, they just become more confident in their horse because they know that horse is capable of more, not necessarily more athletic things, but better stop they put on the horse, the more confidence they have because they know that horse will stop when they ask for it and things like that. So I think always advancing your horsemanship.
and advancing your horse, I think builds a lot of confidence.
Speaker 3 (17:33)
I think that's great. And I think that's where a lot of people do get into trouble is the they don't emphasize the preparation like you just talked about. So it's not, it's not about, you know, oh, now I can finally get to my horse and go ride. It's, you know, I'm going to go to my horse, but I'm going to do some groundwork. And I might do I love how you're saying stay couple days, do a couple days worth of groundwork. And then maybe, you know, a little sweat under the saddle blanket that doesn't hurt the horse. No, and
Speaker 1 (17:51)
Keep it, give it a co-
Good luck.
Speaker 3 (17:59)
it gives you the confidence to in the respect that you've not only realized through the groundwork that you did. And if anybody watched that's listening is watch the fair, watch Jason's videos on the fair on the groundwork, you can understand where exactly where he's coming from with all the groundwork that you probably saw in the fair. And so it's about creating that, that progression, though, where you've got the preparation, you've got the things in in play, you've seen your horse, you're feeling more confident.
And then now you can go ahead and hop on, your foot in the stirrup or like your clinic example too is a perfect example. You know, now they can go canter around because you've laid that foundation, you've prepared them. So now they've got the confidence to go in. And I think we all get stuck in at times. And I think it's inspirational to, you know, to have somebody that's as far along as you are to say, you know, I've been stuck too.
Speaker 1 (18:44)
Ruts.
Speaker 3 (18:53)
Sometimes you just need to push the envelope a little bit and ask for a little bit more, which.
Speaker 1 (18:58)
Right. But prepare preparation, set them up for success and then make sure you're asking. You know, this is another thing too, is people don't always know when to progress or they don't know when to ask for more. But that's where somebody like you could help them out or, and, but there's this point where get that horse ready, but then now let's have some, pick some goals, find some, have some benchmarks so that you feel confident that I am, I am progressing with my horse and even
Speaker 2 (19:01)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:26)
people that don't show and that's a question for you Jason is what about people that don't show horses? What would be benchmarks to show that they're improving?
Speaker 2 (19:35)
think actually, like the showing, it's not that a person has to show, and I don't do it really very much myself either, but the one nice thing, and my wife has pointed it out several times to me, the nice thing about showing is it gives you a goal. You can go in, show, and even if things don't go well, you can then look back and say, this is where I need to improve, this is where I need to work on things and stuff like that. I think you really hit the nail on the head.
as far as what a lot of people need to do, they need to set some goals with their horses. I think it's important to set them kind of step by step. So just as an example, there's a lot of folks that I meet that they're pretty comfortable walking and trotting their horse, but they don't really like to canter all that much. Or they maybe haven't done it in quite a few years or something like that. That's pretty common, I find. So anyways, if they just suddenly decide one day across the past year to yell, yaw and kick their horse and...
they're going to go across the field, might exit stage left pretty quick too. And that, but in that case, I would say like do a lot of trotting, get, do a lot of extended trotting, get your horse moving around a lot, work on maybe if you're sharper turns and stuff like that, because sometimes that those sharp turns kind of get your bounce improved a little bit because you have to stick just a little bit better. And that, so there from there, I would say do your first cantering in the round pen or something like that. And
It doesn't matter if it looks terrible. If you need to hold onto the saddle with one hand, that's perfectly fine. But just set that as your goal. I'm going to canter in the round pan. And then from there, if you're comfortable with it, canter without holding onto the saddle. The next would be step two. Next step, if you have access to an arena, canter in the arenas. A step after that might be canter across the pasture. But just kind of go back and just say, what's the biggest number of steps I can break this down to if I'm kind of lacking my confidence?
And that because the more you break it down, the easier it gets. Now, I like to kind of move along in my training. So you won't see me do something for two days that I could have done in two minutes. And that but at the same time, I think it's definitely better air on the side of more steps than less steps. And I think sometimes to like people say about writing their goals down. I don't it's not necessarily necessary for everybody, but it's not a bad idea. Going to the clinics to not just that I'm going to push clinics on everybody, but
a lot of times they will point out the areas where your horse is lacking. It's not necessarily the clinician, but when they go in there, if you walk in the door and get on your horse and it won't pay any attention to what you're doing, you already are aware, here's a bit of a hole in my program. And something I see quite a bit, it's almost one of those things that gets a little bit funny because you see it so often. So I'm the only one that probably laughs at it. But I'll go in and I'll say, can your horse do
one particular thing and most of the time the person will say, yep, yep, got that down, Pat, no trouble. Okay, let's see it. And it's not working. Well, he does it every other time except right now. Yeah, okay. Then you kind of the next maneuver, can your horse do such and such? Well, he always does, but he's just today he's not doing it. And you're kind of like, okay, but you sort of know in the back of your mind, yeah, the horse kind of does it, but he does it when
you've done everything and maybe in a particular order or you've done it. He only does it on Wednesdays at three in the afternoon, but not any other day and stuff like this. Like a lot of times I find people make a lot of excuses for their horses and I don't think they mean to actually and that, it's just sort of, they'll present the, they'll ask the horse when the conditions are perfect. And that's nice about shows because you have to ask your horse whether they conditions are perfect or not. If it's a windy day or if the other horse in the ring is acting up, you still have to do what you have to do. And that, and
I think it's important for people to set out some goals and maybe ride under less than ideal conditions. like riding on days that where the weather is bad is a good thing. Like your horse can be Mr. Perfect in the arena and you go outside on a windy day, you're maybe dealing with another horse and just kind of setting up things. Sometimes I'll go out and I'll think in my head before I start. I want my horse to lope three circles, stop, back up 10 steps, roll back.
head out the other way and do something else and I'll go through and I'll hit exactly what I set out to do. It's almost like I'm doing a little bit of a pattern and if I have a lot of bumbling along the way and it's not working all that well, I know that I kind of have a few holes. Like if my horse backs up perfectly, that's great, but if my horse doesn't back up perfectly until I've practiced backing up for five minutes, then that's not so great anymore. So I think sometimes just setting a pattern, even if you have no intention of showing in it, just tell yourself,
can I actually go through, this, this, this and this without any glitches? If you can do that, you know you're really on the right track and it's maybe time to ask for a little bit more the next time.
Speaker 1 (24:10)
Right,
but I like how you picked a pattern that if a person were to have some glitches, they're not gonna get into trouble. But it's still something they can do to self check. How am I doing? Am I getting this done? Am I able to shift my horse's weight back? And so I like that idea a lot. I that's simple, and they can do it in their own mind, and they can go to the barn, and they can do it on their own, and just sort of a self, like it's a sort of a self check. That's good. Yeah, you know, I think that we used to show and have students that show and now we
We don't that much anymore either because I'm for me it's for you. It's something we do for ourselves and that's our business. But we realize the big picture and I mean if that fits with showing good do it. But a lot of people don't show and a lot of the horse industry is moving into the direction where certain shows have declined and people are doing this more on their own or they're retired and now they have the money that they can get a horse.
Speaker 2 (24:58)
where...
Speaker 1 (25:06)
And so they have no intention on showing, we need to find ways that they can have goals and benchmarks, because otherwise they feel like they're just not getting anywhere.
Speaker 3 (25:14)
I like how you mentioned clinics too, because I think clinics are such a valuable goal for people to have because in order to get ready to go to a clinic, you're going to start to realize there's some things you have to put into into play in order to get there. But then once you're there, instead of it just being under pressure, you've got somebody that's that is interested in helping you out and helping you progress along your journey. And there's so many advantages in in
taking your horse somewhere and then having it be a nurturing learning environment. And then you come away, not only having reached some goals, but you're gonna find you have new goals now because that clinician just pointed some things out. now you've got tools too. So you're leaving with more tools to get you to these new goals you just discovered you have.
Speaker 1 (25:54)
Thank
Speaker 2 (26:01)
Which is cool. Well, we'll find that too. Sometimes somebody will take a few of our horsemanship clinics and our horsemanship clinics are what we consider our ridden clinics. It's sort of the putting a good foundation on your horse. But then sometimes the same people come back and sign up for one of our Liberty clinics. And maybe they were really interested in Liberty and maybe they weren't like, but they'll just sign up to kind of have some fun and things like that. But then you'll know certain people that go along and it really clicks with them and they kind of have fun. And also they go home and they're
putting this on their horse and they really had no intention of doing it when it comes right down to it, but they just, it sparks an interest and it gives them some goals and they go home and they have a great time. And my wife there, she does quite a few barrel racing and pole bending clinics. And sometimes people, like most of the people in those obviously compete a little bit or want to compete a little bit. But sometimes somebody will go in and they just kind of want to do it once or twice a year at a small little local show, which is great. And that, but all of sudden they'll get a few techniques
notice a big change in their horse. All of a now they're signing up for the one next weekend because they really want to go put this into use. Like they want to have some fun and they want to apply this knowledge. so I do find like the more fun things you learn, the more things you want to learn when it comes to horses. One thing with me, if I see somebody do something with a horse that I don't understand how they got it done, it absolutely drives me insane. I now have to make my life mission to figure out how they did that.
So even if it's something I have no intention of putting on my horses and I don't need it. But if I see somebody put a really neat maneuver on a horse or the horse does something just a little better than what everyone else does and that I just feel like I have to know how they pulled that off or how they taught that horse that thing. So I think you always hear that saying, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And I think the more you study horsemanship, that's probably one of the biggest areas where that saying applies.
Every time you learn something else, you're like, there's so much else I need to figure out.
Speaker 3 (27:54)
Definitely. So tell us a little bit about your Liberty clinics. sound fun.
Speaker 1 (27:55)
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:59)
Well, the Liberty Training, they are fun. I find that with me personally, the Liberty Training, I learned it just because I, again, it was one of those things I thought was interesting. Like when people could go around and have a group of horses running after them or running with them and then circling around with no tack on and things like that. I just found that really intriguing and I kind of set out to figure it out. And ⁓ I felt like I had pretty good success with it. In the very beginning, like I maybe mentioned earlier, I found it frustrating.
And that because a lot of the stuff that I've done, it's sort of been self-taught or sort of learning at a distance. So I would go out and experiment and experiment and experiment and then kind of finally put together something that would work for me. And that, but once I got into it, I really started to enjoy myself. And then people would see me doing it and then they would want to learn how to do it. So then I kind of picked up again, went and offered it at the clinics. And, but it's.
It's one of those things I find that Liberty training right now is really, really popular. People are interested in it. They're intrigued by it. A lot of the big expos will feature Liberty trainers and that. So it's a really a popular thing. I find there's a lot of misunderstanding about it. So I'll see, sometimes somebody will come into a clinic and they'll say, well, I, I'll do this stuff, but my horse already knows this all anyways. And they're kind of, okay. And that, and then they'll start and that's pretty obvious. The horse doesn't. And that
But they've gone out and their version of Liberty training is they turn their horse loose in a round pen and chase it around the pen. And that can be a little bit of a basis for getting started in it. But you can turn any horse loose in a round pen and chase it and it will run. Like that's not really Liberty training and stuff like that. So it's really creating a lot of it's learning how to create a draw with the horse, like where they will come to you with almost no signal. Obviously it's just a slight change of body posture.
With me personally, I found the Liberty training really, really helped. It helped my other training, but it really helped my colt start. Because to be any good at Liberty training, you have to be really aware of what the horse is going to do before he does it. If you wait till your horse is running away from you at Liberty, you have no time to fix it now. You've already missed your chance. You should have caught what was going on when that horse may even looked away from you. That was your chance to make a fix, not when he took off.
And that, so then I got, I felt that it made me better at reading horses. So then when I went back, when I applied it to my colt starting into things, a lot of times then I could see when that colt was maybe getting a little bit upset. I could get a problem solved before it ever happened. Or I could see when that horse was maybe offering me a little bit of a try. He was trying to do the right thing, but just a little bit. And I would catch him and reward him for that instead of needing to see a very obvious, a good reaction from him.
And that's why I really noticed I could pick out what was going to happen a little bit sooner. And I was kind of there before anything bad happened. And I could reward quicker when anything good was happening. So I think the Liberty Training, even if a person doesn't care at all about it as far as doing what they would think of as trick or stuff, if you do take the time to learn it, it can really help a lot of different areas in your horsemanship.
Speaker 1 (31:00)
officer improves their observational skills. And then their their body posture and that you can say that energy that we put out because we do and connecting up to the horse's mind. I mean, and that sounds kind of woo. We are I mean, when I say them, we start a horse. We know what that horse thinking. And hopefully that horse has an idea of what we're thinking.
Speaker 2 (31:14)
But yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:23)
But that liberty work sure gets people reading the horse better. So that's very interesting. And we noticed that too, it's super popular right now. 10 years ago even, feel like it wasn't, it was just an added thing that we did. And now it's like its own.
Speaker 2 (31:39)
discipline something. Well, one thing I find with it too is, again, it's not like I'm critiquing here all the time, but I find some people have sort of a mystical version of it. And that so they'll see a horse running across the arena to get to somebody and then it's doing things with no tack on that. And it does have almost a magical look to it. And I think that's what draws people into it. And that, and I find it exciting. And that, but at the same time, I've noticed,
There is like it's still horsemanship. You still have to learn the steps. You have to learn how to apply it. There's an art to it like anything else with horses and somebody will come along to Liberty Clinic sometimes. And when we start going through the program, how to teach your horse to do these different things, you can tell they're just, I don't want to say confused, but they're not quite sure what's going on because you can tell they thought that I was going to whisper some secret to them that
I learned from a medicine man who lived on a mountain in Tibet and things like that. And this is the secret to horsemanship. And as long as you know this, your horse is going to love you and therefore everything is going to happen. And then they're almost a little bit like, there is quite a bit of work to this. like, this is going to require some effort on my part. This isn't just going to happen. there, usually the ones that really want to learn it, it actually, once they see some progress, then they get excited by it they want to go.
But if a person comes in just thinking this is some magical thing and I'm going to tell them one or two things and then it's going to work, no. And another thing I'll get quite a bit is, my horse already does this. He follows me. And that it's like, yeah, he follows you in the first two minutes when you catch him, when he knows you have a treat in your pocket and he hasn't had to work yet. That's the difference between going out in half an hour later, your horse is still working around you and doing everything that you want. Like that's a trained horse versus.
a horse that just isn't in good mood with you that day.
Speaker 1 (33:24)
And now I'm assuming you rope.
Speaker 2 (33:28)
Very,
very bad at it. Everybody, when I was about five years old, everybody said he's a really good roper. The problem was I never got any better since then. And that, so it's almost kind of embarrassing how bad I am. So competitively no, but I get our horses used to ropes and stuff like that. Yeah. And then I always kind of, do quite a bit with getting horses used to like whips cracking and stuff like that. So I'm somewhat handy with an Australian stock whip.
And I always figure that's a little better because if my horse gets into a spot I might accidentally hang myself with the rope where the whip is short enough I know I won't get into any trouble myself.
Speaker 1 (34:01)
Yeah. What about cattle? Do you rope any cattle?
Speaker 2 (34:04)
We have cattle here and we work them a little bit. To be honest, our cattle here, they're a registered herd and that. if my dad saw me chasing them across the fields too much, I'd probably get shot before too long. But we expose them to stuff and that. But no, we kind of get our horse used to a little bit of everything. We don't really focus down on any one discipline. I find that as far as the clinics, it kind of touches on what you both were saying earlier.
People have sort of gotten away. I want to say they've gotten away from showing, but I think in some areas the importance has gone down just a little bit. But now people are really into just having fun with their horses. So they notice that they want to show in a particular discipline, but they want to dabble in it. Like they want to learn the fun parts of every discipline. So that's kind of what we do a little bit because we are catering to what people want to do.
And that so if they want to learn about a particular thing, we'll kind of start them sort of in any one, I would say any discipline, but we'll start them in a lot of different areas. And that so we try to be pretty well rounded as well as far as what we can do. And the same thing with the horses that we train and sell. used to be bad for I would get frustrated with myself sometimes we would have a horse and I would think this horse would be really good for one particular thing. So I would start to train them for and then the person that would come in wanting to buy the horse
would want it for the total opposite of what you just did. And no, I gotta go back and take off some of the things, because it may be now counteracted with a little bit of what they want to do. So our big thing was always put a really good base on them, get them riding really, really well, show them a little bit of everything, and then the person that gets that horse can go home and do whatever they want from there. But at least the horse has a solid base to move on with in almost any discipline.
Speaker 1 (35:45)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:47)
Yeah,
I think the horses have more fun too when you dabble a little bit, you know, in different things. I think they enjoy that exposure and do you ride your horses out a lot?
Speaker 1 (35:55)
Do right
Like.
Speaker 2 (35:59)
very much.
Yeah, ⁓ usually we do start our colts in a round pen but then I try to get out of it as fast as I can safely get out and that so I would maybe ride them in the round pen for three days. I'm just giving you an average but maybe three days and from there we would start riding around one of the little pastures and then from there to go through the big fields but we've had some colts we've started they've been so nice.
I've ridden them around the round pen for 10 minutes. We swung the door open and went across the fields and stuff like that. So we'll change it up depending whatever the horse needs, but we really try to put outside miles on them. I've noticed sometimes you can get a horse and I think everybody's dealt with this, the horse that rides really well in the arena, but then won't ride very well outside. But I've found that even if they get rode, what I would call a medium amount in the arena. So if they have 30 days in the arena, sometimes those horses have a little bit of a hard time transitioning to listening to you outside.
where if I get even two outside rides on them, then I can go back and ride the arena and everything's easy. But I really try to get outside pretty darn quick. I feel like if they're listening to me there, they'll listen to me anywhere.
Speaker 1 (36:58)
Definitely. I have to step off first.
Speaker 2 (37:00)
Okay.
Speaker 3 (37:01)
Yeah, no, I'd have to agree getting getting them out makes such a difference. It makes everything easier. And I mean, in your instance, you've got horses that are going, you know, all over the world, probably. You're probably coming down to the States and Okay, and so, so just by getting them out and and writing them, you're setting that that foundation where just what anyone can get on them and now start doing something with them where an arena.
Speaker 2 (37:16)
Mostly Canada the US. Yeah
Speaker 3 (37:29)
know, read a written trained horse for 30 days. They've just not been exposed. They don't have the life experience that is necessary for them to, you know, have success with more people and
Speaker 2 (37:40)
No, for sure. just find that again sometimes in the wintertime when the weather is really bad and it's just not practical to be riding through the snow drifts and the ice and stuff like that we'll be riding our young horses in the arena and you'll feel like they're getting pretty trained but then as soon as you get a good day we'll try to get outside but then you'll all of sudden you're riding the horse and it's not just quite as good as he was the day before in the arena you can tell the distractions are getting to him a little bit and you know that you have to spend that outside time on them to kind of
Make sure that bass is solid.
Speaker 3 (38:10)
Right. Yeah, we find the same thing because yeah, here here as well. Winters are inside because oftentimes once you even do get a nice snow, there's ice under the snow. And you're not sure where that's at. And you know, so you just can't even get out because of the because of the ice under the snow. And so yeah, and then you're stuck in the arena. And that's Jack does most of our cult starting now at this point. But that's his least favorite time to start them because first of all, turn to get them moving.
Speaker 2 (38:19)
Yep.
Speaker 3 (38:36)
you know, they don't want to go anywhere because they're in an arena and and then second of all it's you know it's a lot harder once you do finally get outside because they're just not not where you would have had them if you'd ridden them up from the start.
Speaker 1 (38:48)
Yeah, this winter I hand lock horses out I wrote somewhat in the snow, but I just anyway I could I try to get them out. So if I did groundwork outside wrote them inside or just, you know, you're always fighting this. What do I want to do in that indoor arena with these horses that you know, my goal is to always seduce one thing new every session. Yeah, it's easy to do it outside but inside you have to be more creative. So we try our best but yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:09)
That's a good idea.
That almost goes, I was gonna say that almost goes back to what you're saying about like the horses being happy or showing them new things. And I find you have to try a lot harder in the arena to show them new things. In the arena, sometimes you're kind of racking your brain, what else can I do that's not going around in a circle?
Speaker 1 (39:34)
Yeah, exactly. No, it's interesting. No, we started horses like even just recently, it depends on the horse. But sometimes I'm out that first, that first trail ride, you know, that first ride on their backs and I'm out, it just depends. But it's starting horses is interesting. And my, I have my own horse that I don't do that much with, go figure.
Speaker 2 (39:54)
Yep, I know exactly what you're
Speaker 1 (39:58)
They
have a couple of nice horses, but they don't pay as good to ride your own. So you end up riding other, but anyway, I had one that I started and he rode really nice. I mean, I got him out on the trails and I was, I was moving them, moving them around and he, and I, it was so smooth. I put them back outside and I'm like, just grow. I'll leave you alone. And a couple months later, two, three months later, I got them back.
Speaker 3 (40:02)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:23)
And I was trying to do a video with ground work and actually that video wasn't very good. didn't like it the way it worked on the ground. But all of a sudden that horse was ready. Wow, he's really ready, you know? So I got on him a second time and I swear it was like somebody had been riding him all along, but he remembered everything we did the first ride. And it was just like, had I gotten on him that first ride and say there was a glitch, say he got nervous or something, I would have gotten him out again the next day.
But it was so good, put them away and he's, and it was like, just go girl and just be a horse. And I brush them and I'll drain them and that kind of thing. But I don't know. Sometimes horses go so well, let them be, you know, clients horses, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:06)
We had that one year here, we had a big group of young horses that we owned ourselves. And we just had a lot of things on that year and we kind of got behind. we do have an indoor arena now, but this is quite a few years ago and we didn't have one then. So starting them through the dead of winter is pretty hard here. So anyways, we were kind of going along and it was getting pretty obvious we weren't going to be able to get these horses all trained. that's, what we did do though, we brought them all in.
and ⁓ worked with them on the ground a little bit and then put two rides on each one of them. And then that was it as far as the year. Then we started them up again the following spring. The following spring, they were the easiest group to get going and you think, well, two rides couldn't have meant that much, but it did. Like every one of those horses was very easy to, it wasn't like we picked right back up from the second day, but it was pretty close.
And they were a little bit older and slightly more mature and like they'll mature up quickly but between the years they mature up a little bit too and they just seem like they're all easy in the way we went and I was very happy I did that the fall before because I would have had a pretty busy time there in the spring.
Speaker 1 (42:13)
right? Yeah. But isn't that interesting and that sort of counterintuitive or for some people, you know, we've been told, be consistent, be, you know, repetition, you know, I'm not saying this is good, but people teach this, you know, you've got to be consistent, you've got to do the same thing presented. And actually, I find out, I don't know why, but I'm always opposite. like, I don't want to present things the same way all the time to my horse. I want to be I want to present things in a way where my horse is always interested in thinking and I and
I don't know, it's hard because I feel like we're sort of opposite that way at this point. But you know, back when people were showing, you know, then we would we would jump more and we would, you know, we would try to make sure they were ready. But now it's like, you how creative can we be and yeah, yeah. tell them about your your horse your apple loosa. You something with him that he really wasn't even ready.
Speaker 3 (43:01)
Yeah,
so I did some pre-St. George dressage, which is up there a little ways in the dressage. He was an Appaloosa and I decided that I would take him to that level and he'd never done dressage before. And so I just did it out in the fields, you know, he was a horrible mover.
Speaker 1 (43:20)
He was a flat. was fine.
Speaker 3 (43:22)
For example, Lusa, but for upper level dressage, there's not anything to speak of. So I used the fields and the creek and brush and got him moving and using himself out there. And then he moved well in the arena because he was interested. If I had done all my riding in the arenas, he would have just been flat and bored out of his mind because...
Speaker 2 (43:42)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:42)
The stock horses are stinking smart, you know, and he's just, he was just smart. And so the movements and teaching of what he had to do and the lead changes and all that was pretty easy. But the movement part, you know, and having expressive, bold, energetic movement, that was a tougher piece to get.
Speaker 1 (43:58)
Yeah, but it was easier to get it out out on the trails than it was right in the
Speaker 2 (44:02)
in the ring. you're saying about the consistency. It always seems like they're sort of extremes. I think, like I've had a lot of times where I've worked with a young horse, had some success and then left them alone for a while and come back and I'm pleasantly surprised that they came back almost better than what they were put away at. And there, but then you kind of get the opposite extreme where somebody's say, well, I ride my horse once every three months. And it's like, well, and I like, and I like to give them lots of breaks. And it's like, well, there's breaks, but then there's
breaks. Like, I like to ride up till there. I feel like I'm having some success and then kind of ended on a good note. But one surely we had one time I was riding her and I probably put somewhere around 25 to 30 rides on her. And she was nice, but you're always were kind of like, like, it was a little bit of a struggle and
she would do it, but not really because she wanted to and kind of giving you about 60 % effort all the time. And I was trying to mix it up and come up with something like that would make things a little more interesting for her. Nothing seemed to work. She'd always do okay, but never special. And so anyways, I was kind of trying to think of other ideas and that, and like I say, I do do some of the Liberty stuff. So I gave her about a week off and did nothing. And then I did the Liberty training for about two weeks, I guess. And in the first,
part of it the first few days I was working with her, it was kind of the same thing. She sort of gave you a 60 % effort. And then all of sudden she started to kind of figure it out. And then she was kind of having fun with it. And then within a very short period of time, like I could take, not that I run very fast, but I could run as fast as I wanted to. And she'd be running beside me and then you'd stop and she'd slam the brakes on and stand quietly beside you. And she could circle around with me, around me with no tack on out in an open field and stuff like that. And she really got it.
really well and I didn't ride her at all in that time. So then I did the Liberty training for about two weeks and then the one day I threw the saddle on her and got on and everything that I had been trying to teach her in the first 30 days that she'd been resisting, it was like it magically was there all of sudden. swear elves came in in the middle of the night and trained her when I wasn't doing it but it's just you're thinking how did this happen? Like I hope that this would get her a little bit maybe listening to me more.
But it was just like I had a brand new horse and that but before she always she didn't really want to pay attention to me was a lot of it Where with the liberty work, I really had her focus now. She was enjoying herself And I went back and then I said she probably had 25 to 30 rides that were mediocre and then within I would say two weeks of going back and riding her
I had her where she was going around with no bridle on, we'd be loping along doing circles, then doing big stops, not sliding, but stopping from a lope out in the open and stuff like this with no head gear on and all that. you're just, think, well, this is pretty amazing. You'd like to take all the credit for it, but it almost felt like something was working for you that you weren't even sort of aware of. But it was just, that was what that particular horse needed. I tried some other things and they didn't work, but that did.
Speaker 1 (46:59)
Right, yeah, it carried over a positive correlation to what you did on the ground. She said, this is what you want human and you got it on her back. You know, that was an example. You know, we say that how important ground work can be. Now that's an example of how well it can work. There is the other side where people live on the ground and they never want to get on their horse because say they're nervous or whatever and they think they're going to get everything perfect on the ground and then it might all carry over. Well, some will.
But there's those two extremes. They can really get a lot on the ground, but then some horses they do need, there's a point to transition to their back. But that's interesting, isn't it? How much that horse understood.
Speaker 2 (47:36)
Yeah, I'm the ground work is really good. And that's something else I though I sometimes think that a person always has to keep in mind. Like this, maybe I'm bumbling over the words, but I find a lot of times somebody thinks groundwork all groundwork is good and all groundwork is the same. And it's not you can do bad groundwork the same as you can do bad written work. Yeah. And that so somebody will say, here's a horse. And I've done six months of groundwork.
And there may be no better for having done the six months of ground work. In some cases, they're sort of maybe behind the ball as if they hadn't done anything, but they've maybe actually left that horse away with things. They've let the horse start pushing them around on the ground or if the horse was already a little bit rude, maybe they've gotten a little bit worse and stuff like that. I think I always kind of tell people time is kind of a poor thing to measure horse training in. Like it's always a quality, not quantity.
So you can say I've worked on a horse for 90 days. Doesn't mean the horse really is any good for having had the 90 days. Like it might not know all that much, or it might actually be worse for having done it if you've done the wrong things. You can have a, you can watch some trainers though, and you'll see somebody who's really phenomenal at what they do. And you'll see them work with a horse for five minutes and you'll see a huge transformation. Their five minutes was better than the other person's 90 days. And so it's usually the extreme examples aren't quite that extreme, I know.
And that, I think a person really has to gauge quality as far as saying, I'm going to work with this horse for six months on the ground or two months in the ground or whatever. I think you have to say, what am I getting right? If, if what you're doing is working, that's great. But I think then you want to move on a little bit too. And I heard another trainer give an example one time and I thought he was dead on the money. He said, when you stay in the same spot with horse, it's like taking a kid, putting them in school and saying, this
my kid is doing so well in grade three, he's doing phenomenal. He's doing so good, we're just gonna keep him there for a couple more years. And I was like, that's not the idea. He's good there at three, now go four. And that you wanna keep moving along, because otherwise your horse is gonna start to actually backpedal after a while. They can't do the same thing again and again and again and again and stay interested. They just are not gonna give you that effort anymore. You need to kind of stimulate them a little bit too.
Speaker 1 (49:44)
Yeah, definitely. Right. What are some, what are some sort of signals or indicators that a horse is ready to that you're ready to progress forward with your horse? I mean, it's a general question, but how, do people know when they're ready to maybe move up the ladder a little bit with their horse?
Speaker 2 (50:00)
Yeah, well, I think I guess the obvious one is say, say you're working on a particular maneuver, right? And that when it's going well, I'll just start asking for just a tad more once in a while, even if I feel like the horse is doing like pretty good, decent, not necessarily phenomenal, but I'll just try to step one step up the ladder and just see if that horse maybe has it in them to go just that little bit more. I remember when I was pretty young, I was trying to teach this one particular horse to spin.
And I had never really taught one to spin. I think that was like the first one that I tried to do it with. So I really didn't want to mess up. So I was going and I would walk the slow circles and then ask for a slow turnaround and slow turnaround and slow turnaround. And the horse was doing pretty well. And, ⁓ but I was thinking, I'll do this for quite a while longer. And then by dumb luck, the one night I was working on them and I asked them to turn and I accidentally bumped him with my leg and over cued him.
and that, and the horse sat down and started into a fast hard spin, which is exactly what I wanted. But I asked for it by mistake that night. And that, but then the light bulb kind of went on and you think, so you've known, this horse has known how to do this for quite a while now. And here I was sitting there kind of just sitting in grade one and he was ready to do grade six in this maneuver. And that, but I hadn't asked him, like I, you always want to go slow and get the foundation good. And then I put in that particular case,
I'd got to the point where it was me, not him. Like he was ready to move on. I, he had this down path and it was just a matter of me asking for him. But I think the biggest thing is when you ask for one thing, if the horse can do it in a relaxed frame of mind, that kind of tells me it's time to move on. If the horse does something, but it was very tense and very nervous, then you probably need to be there a while until he kind of calms down. You don't want him just doing it cause he got lucky or reacted to it.
you want him to it because he thought it out and knew what you were actually after. I think that's probably the biggest difference.
Speaker 1 (51:53)
Yeah, that's a good that's a great point there. And and you know, you know, that what comes to mind, you brought up earlier is cantering. How much of the time people they say they want to canter. And the horse can do this, the horse can do it right easy. But the human doesn't always understand what that movement feels like. So sometimes accidentally, people get a cancer. And then they pull on the horse, because they got nervous or they didn't or or
In other words, the horse was going to slip into the canner that that human didn't allow it. So I'll tell people, hey, if they accidentally canter going up this hill, it's a gift, take it. You're going to get to feel this just like your horse started this, you knew that horse was further along than you thought. And it was you right at that point. It's the same thing with people and cantering. So, you know, let's find a way to get that horse to slip into that canner. Um, and, and let, let it happen. Sometimes, you know, people have been ingrained, don't let the horse get away with
Don't let the horse get away. You didn't ask. Don't let the horse get away with it. And I always tell them, no, no, no, don't worry. Let the horse give it to you, even if you don't ask, because now you know what it feels like.
Speaker 2 (52:52)
Yep. I had that almost the exact same scenario play out big time. I was one of the first clinics I ever taught. I went around asked everybody before the clinic, what are you working on or what problems are you having? Just so I was kind of aware, maybe what else I needed to cover that wasn't already in my plan. And it really, it caught me off guard because almost everybody in the clinic said my horse bucks. And
I think I was looking around at the horses and they were all a very quiet group of horses. And the riders were not people that didn't ride. They were all people that would go out on long trails. would go, they drive across the country to go to a big trail ride somewhere and things like that. And for a minute, this is again, this is one of the first clinics I taught. And I'm like, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with this if every horse in here is a bronc and that, but so anyways, got going.
Asked them a little bit more, but then it kept coming up. My horse bucks out the canner. He walks and trots fine, but he bucks the canner. And then as soon as we got into the clinic, it was really easy to see why, why this was the case. Everybody had always walked and trotted the trails everywhere, but no, you don't really lope on trails a lot if you're traveling in a big group. So they hadn't done a lot of that. So when everybody in the clinic would ask for the lope, they'd be squeezing with their legs and pulling back on the reins. So the horse was getting all this energy.
that should have been going forward, but they're pulling on them. So, but they still had the same energy. So now all of the lope was getting higher and higher and now we're starting to borderline into the bucking heel. So they went off, they went like this and everybody's like, see what I told you and kind of start, okay, try again. I told everybody, all right, now grab on the horn and put your other hand down, put the reins down. Every horse flattened out and loped around and I was the hero of the day. I didn't really do anything. that, but it was the case with every single horse in the clinic, I think.
except for sometimes with a lope, if a person does not ask for the lope, the horse is almost uncomfortable carrying a person out of lope. And I do see that quite a bit. if you get a horse that's walked and trotted for a long time, and a lot of times the person has almost by accident scared them into not being allowed to lope, because every time they lope, the rider will quickly pull back on them because they're nervous as the rider. Well, after a while, if you get on that horse and ask for the lope, the horse is like, no,
this is where I get in trouble, I don't want to lope. that so they'll go around maybe doing this big extended trot, but they just will not break into the canter. And that in that case, it actually is the horse like it was maybe taught that, but you do have to then kind of help the horse along. And that's kind like what you said, letting them lope up the hill or something, get them out in a nice big area. And if they want to go kind of let them and just roll with
Speaker 1 (55:24)
I was gonna say, you know, you hear about in clinics, we hear turning loose, you know, a saying I've here is a horse can give a horse can yield or horse can turn loose. And you're always sort of working towards that turning loose movement, where the horse really wants to give it to you, you know, and you're not always going to get that. But you sure you sure want to work. That's what that's what I'm always trying to get people understand is is the horse
the horse will turn loose if he wants to. That's why it's easier to get it up a hill or coming down a hill and you know, it's easy to then at the bottom of hill as they're coming to the flat, ask for the canter. But yeah, it's like, I'm always trying to get people to feel this turning loose with that horse. So much of it's just going along with the horse. I don't know if you have any tips to getting people to kind of go along and let, how do get people to let go?
Speaker 2 (56:08)
there. Well, the one thing I was going to say that kind of I do quite a bit that kind of touches on what you mentioned there was when I'm riding a colt for the first few times, and sort of like going along for the ride a little bit, if they start turning on their own, instead of arguing with that, a lot of times I'll ask them to turn in the same direction they were already turning anyways. So if I'm going along and also the horse turns right, I'll pick up just lightly on the right rein, and kind of have them thinking, Did I do that? Or did he ask me for that?
Either way, I've kind of won like not won as in the you be you Cheated in any way but you just kind of went along and let them think that what they were doing was what you wanted them to do And then when I suddenly do start asking for something they just kind of go along with me There's no there was no arguing there was no fighting to begin with so they don't start arguing with you now and that so I just kind of go along and They'll do something. that was genius. That's just what I wanted to do
So no, try to do that. The turning loose part, yeah, I find a lot of times people do do exactly what you're saying. They're on their mouse a lot. Like a lot of times I see people riding with what I call a dead feel and they're pulling enough that they have a contact but there's no give in their arms. You're just riding with that steady locked down feel. And then I'll see some that think they're riding with collection when they're doing that.
And that's so they're riding with clamp down because this is collection and maybe the horse has his head tucked a little bit. But if you get on that horse, you pick up on them, it's a very dead feel. Like you just feel like it's a chunk of wood. There's nothing there. And that so the turning loose, I guess the main thing I would say there is again, kind of going into an area where you're safe and that's if you need to go into a round pen, that's fine. But really practice riding with your hands down.
I'll tell people like put your reins in one hand and then just let that hand ride on the neck and that because that way there's a lot of times I'll tell someone put your hand down and they'll put it down. But then after a second you'll see them creeping back up again. Yeah, yeah, let them put it down. And then two seconds later here you see them doing it again and they're not even trying to. It's just so, so much habit that, but I'll say if you actually wrapped your hand on their neck, sometimes it's probably not really proper equitation, but you'll realize when your hand is coming off it.
Or if you tell them put your hand on the front of your saddle, they'll notice when their hand starts to come up and they'll kind of tell themselves to put their hand back down. But practice riding at once, obviously probably start with a walk in there, but having that hand rested down and then do it at the trot then the candor later on if you're more comfortable with it and that. But then a lot of it is just ask something from your horse, but then just leave them alone. And that, and I find a lot of people struggle with that. just,
They'll ask for it, but then the horse responds, but they keep the pressure on and they just need to kind of just keep reminding them, okay, let go. He did it, let go. And then once you've done it enough that they start to realize they're doing it, then they'll kind of check themselves and they don't need somebody telling them all the time to watch out for it.
Speaker 1 (59:08)
Yeah, direct and let them find it. Direct. And then another thing directs to another thing and let them find it. But I like, I mean, the way you're describing it, it's cool how, you know, I'm going to use the phrase horsemanship. And we know what that means, you know, but it's interesting that, you know, we've got this language and you're describing similar methods to what we would do, slightly different words.
but it makes perfect sense. And like dressage is a language, dressage is a training system, right? But now horsemanship, and I'm not, we love dressage, I love classical dressage, but horsemanship now is, we have this language, we are kind of coming up with a good system, if that makes sense. But I like the way you describe that, especially the horse that turns and then you just turn it again. And you didn't argue.
And it almost seemed like you said you said it, it was like your idea and pretty soon the horse will mesh become you know the horse will kind of mesh together with Yeah, there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (1:00:05)
Because you've always been going along together.
Speaker 2 (1:00:08)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (1:00:09)
Of it's just like, this is how it always feels, so okay I guess we're doing that.
Speaker 1 (1:00:12)
Yeah,
it's great. Why have like you said, why have that argument, know, tips with the hand going down so that rider has an indicator to when their hands coming up. And like you said, letting letting that horse go and not, you know, people want to, I don't know, people want to control all the time, right. And sometimes you just have to let go and do nothing. But here's another one for you. Once in a while, you might have a cold. don't get it too much. And you probably don't either. But if a horse
Speaker 2 (1:00:16)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (1:00:37)
Colt starts bucking. No, what do you do? Yeah. I mean, that's a vague question again, but.
Speaker 2 (1:00:44)
Yeah, it kind of depends a little bit on the horse, I guess. One technique that I do, and it's going to be kind of hard to explain it without having a horse to do it, but I'll take a lariat and I'll make a fairly big loop and I'll kind of drape it behind their butt and then it goes up over the back of the saddle a little bit. So it's not tied down on there. All I have to do is flick the rope and everything falls off it.
but if I put a little bit of pressure on it, it will kind of just snug up behind their hind end. And it's kind of surprising sometimes how much you can take out any bucking with that. And, what I'll do is I'll be sort of lunging them with this hand maybe, and then holding the lariat in the other hand, and I'll pick up and it'll put a little bit of pressure behind the butt and you'll see them, they'll kind of scoot their butt under themselves and the intel they're not just sure what's going on, but then they'll kind of come out of it.
And as soon as they take a step or two, that's just maybe a little bit more free, I'll release the lariat, the pressure on the rope. I'm still holding it, but I'll release that pressure. And then I'll pick up again after a minute and put a little pressure there and then they'll, they'll scoot again and then they'll walk out of it. And then I release the pressure again after one or two minutes of this, when I pick up on the rope, they don't do anything. But a lot of times it's almost like when they Colts go to buck for the first time,
I don't know if this makes any sense to explain, but it's almost like they kind of grab with their hind end, walk and then go. Like it's kind of a snap reaction. that, and for whatever reason, this does seem to kind of iron out some of that part. Like you're doing it in a gentle way. Another thing I'll do sometimes when I'm settling them up, I really try to not ever let them buck with the saddle on. that so, and it's something, it's something that,
I do and like I know other people do it, but I don't always recommend it because when I start them, I will put the saddle on for, well, first I'll get them used to things. I'll put the saddle blanket, rub it over them and things like that. And then I'll take a long lead rope and I'll put it around their belly and put a little pressure there just so they're used to cinch pressure almost before the saddle ever goes on. And I'll put a little pressure there. And then when I feel the horse relax a little bit, then I'll release that belly pressure.
And then if I'll ask, put a little more pressure on and if they tense up, I keep the pressure there. But then once they relax, I release that pressure again. So I'm trying to kind of go through and figure what are the things that would make this horse buck in the first place and how can I get rid of it before it ever happens? Another thing I'll do is I'll put the saddle on and I'll do it up tight enough that they can't get it off, but then I'll work them around me on a short line and then I'll tighten just a little bit more than work them around me and then tighten just a little bit more.
And I find if they've never got a chance to buck in the first place, it makes it so much easier later on. The one part I was going to say there is I don't always recommend that to people though, because like not that I'm amazing at it, but I always feel like if one does get upset and starts to jump around with his first saddle, even though I have the lead rope on it, I'm usually quick enough. can step out of its way where if a person has never done this before and you have a horse that's now jumping around on the end of the lead rope, you're kind of worried they're going to get run over.
So in that particular case, if it's the first time or two a person does it, then I would maybe say, saddle them up, take the lead rope off and just let them go and let them figure it out a little bit themselves just from the safety point of view of the handler. I think on the lead it's maybe slightly better for the horse, but it's a little riskier. Like I don't think there's any way around that. A lot of really teaching them to get soft in the face. So if they'll bend one way or another,
Then always, of course, if one does go to buck a little bit or something like that, if you can pull that head around, they can maybe jump around a little bit on all four feet, but they can't really get themselves lined up to do the big stuff. It'll be obvious the horse isn't maybe wanting you there, but they can't go full on and really go into a bucking mess. If I find one, if I get on one that I find is pretty tense.
Sometimes what I'll do is I'll stand in the saddle on one side and then just kind of lightly bump them with my leg and ask them to take a step or two forward or to the side before I actually swing on and that I do that sometimes just to if they really went to do something wrong I still have time to step off without being committed to being there if something really goes wrong. Another one again these are things I know you guys all know but frame by watching
teaching them where you can bring their head around and then yield their hindquarters the opposite way is always a really good one. So if you get on them and they start to get a little bit upset, if you bring their head around and start to swing their butt away, you've almost kind of like throwing, I always say it's like throwing a car in neutral. It could still roll around, but it can't really build up any momentum to go anywhere. that, so working on that a little bit on the ground before you get on, I think can help a lot of people get out of trouble, like teach them to bend the head and then swing the hip away. And I think that's a really goodie.
I guess I'm giving you lot of different answers to the same question, but it's it's a lot of different things
Speaker 1 (1:05:31)
there's so many options. then and then you know, I sing getting on a horse now most of the time, like what you said about saddling, you really want to avoid it anyway, not put it in there. Because you saddle a horse up at box once, oh boy, if you sell it up the second session at box now, you get those young ones where they think they you know, that's just part of their program part of the routine. So you try to avoid it. But every once in a while, if I get on one, I don't get them bucking much. But if I do, there is a point where you sit you sit there.
and you just ride that. But that's something that we are professionals. And I'm not saying that everybody should just go do that. But then again, you know, some of those people are getting on young horses, maybe they might not have business getting on anyway. I'm sure you've seen that at clinics where you've got to get people on.
Speaker 2 (1:06:02)
Yep.
Well, in the clinic setting, we don't do a lot. I do cult starting like as a demonstration more than as showing other people how to do it because I'm always just like I've been asked lots of times, would you do a cult starting clinic? And not that we'll never do one, but I'm always just like if you tell somebody, okay, it's ready to get on, it's maybe ready for me to get on or for you to get on, but it's not maybe ready for them to get on.
and that you don't want to feel like you're ever pressuring anybody to do this when maybe this isn't right. And a clinic, even the longest clinics are short in the scheme of things. Like if you have a, whether it's a three day clinic or a week long clinic, that's still not a lot of time if a person isn't ready to go. The one thing, when I first started starting outside horses for people, I won't say it's when natural horsemanship first became popular, but it was when natural horsemanship was really on its, really coming in heavy.
And that's like, there's a lot of famous clinicians going around, starting a lot of horses. the Colt starting is always one of the more popular things for people to watch. I'm sure everybody knows that like at an expo or an event, if there's somebody starting a Colt, there's a crowd there. Like that's just kind of the way it is. And that so, but it was kind of comical in a way because people would watch trainers do this, who would maybe started thousands of horses and they'd be maybe be riding a horse around and
45 minutes or an hour or something like that and the horse would actually be doing a pretty good job and it looked like but it it's to the point it looked like it was easy and it looked like it was almost too easy and that so it was again it was funny to me in a way not funny haha but somebody would phone up and they'd say I have a horse that I would maybe like you to start and I'd say fine and then they would say or I might just start of myself and you okay fine whatever you want to do and then
pretty big percentage of the time, week, about a week later, I get a call that Colts coming to you now. And that, and you knew darn well they'd gone out, watched that cause they would, a lot of times they'd be telling me about events they've been to or things they've seen and stuff like that. And you knew darn well, they thought that because they had a free hour, they were going to do what the other guy did in an hour. And that it's just, not the way it works. The other person has done this with hundreds or thousands of them and they've refined this out so much.
And that and then someone else would look at their watch. it's 11 o'clock. I've got an hour till lunch. I'll train this horse in the meantime, because I've got a free a free hour and stuff like that. And I know we had a few of them where somebody would say, I'm just going to do it myself. And then a week later, they'd come along and the owner's wearing a cast on one arm and stuff like this. You'd say, did you try to start the cold? ⁓ no. And that as soon as you started working with the horse, you knew full well they had because
That was something I used to get a lot is I would get horses sent in and they'd say they hadn't been started. But then you'd start working with them. And if you've started very many, and as you know, it's really easy to tell when someone else has died and that. the problem with that is they've tried, gotten into trouble. Now the cold is left with a bad memory. And now you've got to kind of go back and try to figure out what went wrong if they don't tell you and that. you're, setting yourself back. But the cold starting thing, it's not that I don't
want anyone to ever start their own horses because everybody's got to, someone's got to learn how to start them somewhere so that there will be cold starters. but I sometimes tell people there's no shame in letting someone else put the first little bit on them. If you get a young horse and you're looking at this as this is, you're going to be your forever horse and stuff like that. Like there's no shame and there's no harm in letting someone else put the first month on them just to make sure you've got a pretty good base to go on with. Like if you're, if you just,
If you're going to get on just because you want to be the only person that's worked with them, that's okay. If you feel like you can truly get it done. But if you're just doing it because you want to be the person, then I don't know if that's so hot. Like you kind of, I think I have a person with their horsemanship, they always sort of have to take us an honest look at themselves. And if they truly feel they're ready, great. Like I would never argue against that. Cause a lot of what I've done has been experimenting and trial and error and stuff like that. But
Like the first part of the starting one can be bad trial and error if you don't get it right. So you want to be fairly confident in your skill, I think.
Speaker 1 (1:10:19)
Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how a lot of people do feel like they want to do it themselves. It's like, well, this is my horse. This is my project. This is my goal. And I think, well, yeah, but what if you put something in there undesirable, and now you and the horse are scared. And like you said, the horse has a bad memory. Human does. yeah, so it's really about like, if you send a horse, people will say, well, what's your training program? And I'm always like, well, and sometimes I work myself out of a job a little bit, because I'll say, well, I don't really
Don't think of it as training. Think of it as taking your horse and giving it experiences. Saddling, going through water, going in the ring, jump, whatever, jumping. I'm going through experiences with your horse so your horse has that foundation. And some people really jive with that and other people are like, they give me a look like, well, what do mean? And I know I am training, but I don't think of it that way anymore. So if I have a bunch of positive experiences built on off of each other, that's a big picture.
Speaker 2 (1:11:03)
You're not cheating.
Yeah, no, but you're going at it, but you're not approaching it like a drill sergeant Yes, but you're you're guiding them down the right path like that horse is learning He is picking up as he goes along but he's in a good state of mind But if you go out and say today, I'm going to teach this horse this Then that's maybe maybe not right thing. Exactly. So yeah, I think that and something else too You said about putting the foundation on them. And again, I know you guys know this as good as anybody
and that but it is so much harder to fix problems than it is to excuse me so much easier to put the foundation on in the first place than it is to go out and fix problems that have been put on and like I know sometimes somebody will be there and they have a horse and they'll say it bites kicks rears strikes runs off drags me all over the place does this this this this this and they rhyme off 500 things and then I want you to fix it and like the thing I say about that is it's like not that it can't
the horse can't be brought around. that, but I say like, it's, they think the horse knows a certain amount and then you're just going to go in and fix those things. And it's like, that's not really the way it works. Like that's like you went, basically that's like, went out, built an entire house out of rotten wood and then said, fix it. And there is no fixing that house. Like you have to go in, tear it down and start again. So like you have to go in and almost take that horse back.
I would say to square one, but almost some cases farther back than that, it seems, because you're not starting from zero, you're starting in the negatives. Yes. So you have to kind of get rid of the other stuff plus start again. And that and like, not that it happens a lot, but sometimes I'll have somebody and they'll say, here's a horse and it's, it has all these, has a lot of problems and they want all that fixed. Plus they want a whole bunch of maneuvers and new things put on them. And you have a really,
then they give you a really short period of time. want it done in 30 days. And it's like, well, not only do I have to undo the stuff that's there, then I have to put the entire foundation on it that was never there in the first place. And then you want the, the, the jazzy stuff on top of it. And it's like, you've now described an awful lot of stuff and like, and this isn't being very realistic, like a good foundation. Like I think a person can get a decent amount done. Like,
starting a cold in 30 days, but that's not a trained horse. That's a started horse. Like they call it starting for a reason. That's 30 days or 60 days, whatever. They have a nice start, but they're not trained. So as far as in that same period saying, I'm going to race a whole bunch of stuff, plus put the foundation on, plus put a bunch of fancy stuff. Like that's not being very realistic.
Speaker 1 (1:13:42)
Exactly. Exactly. You have three months to work on something that they've had for five years.
Speaker 2 (1:13:46)
Yeah. And I think that's something somebody doesn't think of a lot of times a person doesn't think about. Yeah. Like the trainer should get farther along than what somebody would be if they don't ride professionally for the most part. And that, like not always some people that ride for fun are fantastic. And that lots are, but a trainer is going to go farther in a month's time than just someone that rides once in a while. And that, but at the same time, if that horse is four years old,
you've had 48 months with him and the trainers had maybe one or two and that like the 48 is still a lot bigger number than the one or two. And that's so like, if there's a lot of bad stuff has gone on in that first X amount number of months, that was one or two months. That's not a lot of time to get everything straight around. Like on the other hand, like if a horse comes in and it is sort of a, it either has a nice start, a nice foundation or something is nothing. Zons are kind of nice to deal with.
And there's then sometimes it's surprising how far a person can get in a relatively short frame of time. Also that horse that just didn't know anything other than how to lead a month later, looks pretty fancy under saddle. Like they look like they're doing well and that, but again, I guess that all comes back to just working on the individual horse. Some progress faster than others, all that stuff and kind of taking the time. And I think like I've had exactly what you were saying there earlier, like you try to tell people sort of how you go about it and that, and you're just, I'm trying to convey
the message that it's gonna depend on what this horse is capable of as well. that so like if you're, if somebody says, I got this horse that tried to kill the last five trainers and he's for the grandchildren to learn to ride on. And that you have to kind of say, well, is this really the match? Like is this being realistic or somebody wants a barrel horse and it's a horse that I could outrun on foot and I'm not that fast. And there you have to kind of, well.
Like you have to sort of set your expectations based on what your horse is. You want him to be the best he can be, but the best he can be might not be what you want him to be too. I think that's sometimes a hard message for someone to get because they love their horse and they want it to be their, their horse that does everything for them. But sometimes that horse is good up to a certain point for a certain thing. Like they'll, it be like if you have a basketball player that's seven feet tall, he's going to have a pretty big advantage for somebody that's five feet tall. So that's.
If you have a horse that's suited, it's going to make your life a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (1:16:03)
Every once in a while, have you had to tell somebody that this isn't the right horse for you? Have you had to do that?
Speaker 2 (1:16:08)
Yeah, and that that's always just a little bit tricky because it's the last thing in the world they want to hear. Yeah. And that so it depends like I luckily I don't get that a whole lot because it's it is it's an awkward moment in there when you have to do that. But sometimes yeah, we've had to say a few times like I don't really think this is going to do what you right what you want. And it people take it differently. One person
would be kind of like, darn, but I guess that's the way it is. Another person, I wouldn't say they'll be happy about it, but they'd be like, I'm really glad you told me so that I'm aware, so that I can make the right decision both for me and the horse. then obviously the opposite of that one, the one you don't want, is the one that just will not maybe accept that. like I know I've seen, again, I don't run into this a lot, but there'll be a horse that just,
that rider isn't gonna work for them. Like they're just, they're a horse that requires somebody that's gonna ride maybe all the time. They're gonna, they have to either be a trainer or pretty close to it being a trainer to get along with them and stuff like that. And then if the owner says, I want this horse and I want you to train this horse and I wanna be able to ride him once every month on a trail ride out of.
a slow walk or something like that. That's all I want to do with them. So I want them safe for that. And my grandkids might want to ride once in a while. And again, if that's a horse, it would take a professional to get along with and they want to ride them once a month. You have to be like, no, I don't think this is, this is the way here. that, but it, puts you on a spot. Like I honestly hate it when I have to tell anybody that and there, but at the same time, some, another trainer pointed out to me and I thought it was a good thing.
You might be kind of the villain a little bit when you say that, but you're also the person that maybe kept them from getting hurt or into a wreck or something like that too. And there, because if you just go home and you send a horse that just isn't gonna work for them and say, yeah, he's great. And they go out and get into trouble. You haven't done them any favors. And that you were the nice guy the day you sent the horse home, but you weren't helping them. So I think that's, I think it's just sort of part of the business, something you have to kind of.
Speaker 1 (1:18:13)
think it is. Yeah, and we take it as if we're, you know, the one working with their horse. Even even if we get their horse going well for them, we've achieved something. But yet if we tell them it's not the right match, then we feel like we fail. I don't want to say failed, but we feel like we didn't get the job done. But now I'm at a point where I'm like, you know what, it just wasn't the right it's not the right that that horse is fast.
Speaker 2 (1:18:13)
Be aware, it's awkward.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (1:18:37)
quick, you know, that horse's fast reflexes and that human's slow and out of shape, you know, and sometimes there just isn't a good fit. And yeah, you're right. It's so awkward to tell people, but it's the right, probably the right thing to do. Right for the horse too, right, right.
Speaker 2 (1:18:48)
Yeah, well, take two.
Yeah, yeah, because that's not to say it's not a good horse. It's just not a good horse for them at that point. Like, if they work on their horse, and I've had it sometimes, where people just weren't matched up to a particular horse. And they almost kind of put them on the back burner for a while, learned more on a horse that was maybe a little bit easier. And then now they're suddenly ready to take on the one that was maybe not the suitable one before, but they've upped their own game.
and that and now they're ready to move up the ladder. So like when that happens, that's great. Like they're in that or sometimes one maybe they're not maybe the perfect match, but it's okay. But if that person goes home and maybe they get some help from a coach and a trainer and they kind of keep them on the right path, then sometimes you can bring the tone the horse down and bring the rider up and all of a then they match again and that but it's just if they're not, if they don't match perfectly, you can still sometimes make it work.
And that but if it's just if one of them is here and the other one's here now we've got quite a problem quite a spread but actually like with us here a big percentage of the training we do is horses of our own. So like if we're working on our own horses and then they go to go to a new home they've already been kind of matched up and that like if it wasn't the suitable horse we just would have never recommended to them in the first place and that so you're not sending it to the person that won't work that won't get along with them so that we just don't have that kind of
keeps us from having to deal with that too much. And that's another thing I like about the clinics too is it's sort of like the catch a fish versus teach a man to fish. Like when you're going to the clinics and you kind of help everybody get a little bit better, everybody goes home and is a little bit better for it. So everybody, you progress them, but you progress their horse at the same time. And that's, so if you make them just a little bit better or help them in some areas where they were having a little bit of trouble.
they kind of automatically get along with their horse a little better and their horse is automatically a little bit better for it. So I like the clinics for that reason a lot. really, I kind of like seeing that change in both the horse and the rider. All of sudden you see somebody maybe struggling a little bit and then all of a sudden you see them doing a lot better and it gives you a sense of pride, I think.
Speaker 3 (1:20:48)
Well, so where would somebody go about finding out about your clinics and learning more about you?
Speaker 2 (1:20:54)
Well, our website for the training end of things is thehorstrainers.com and then our Facebook page, Jason and Bronwyn Irwin Horsemanship. And we always try to post pretty regularly on there. And then the farm page is northstarlivestock.com. And then we have a Facebook page, North Star Livestock as well. so we're not a very tech savvy person, but we have a lot of technical stuff considering I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to any of it.
there so that we have we post more of the the horses on the farm things and then we post more the clinic end of stuff on the horse trainers website or the Jason Brown Erwin horsemanship.
Speaker 3 (1:21:32)
you
offer some online courses as well.
Speaker 2 (1:21:34)
Yep, we've just introduced a groundwork series here a little while ago. And then we have quite a few videos on YouTube on both channels for the farm and the horsemanship and the things. then over the next little while with the COVID deal, we have the professional video cameras and all that kind of stuff, but we bought them about two years ago and then never had time to turn them on.
We got them and we're gonna make all these good videos and then we're running around to clinics and riding horses all day so we never really hardly use them. that's so now we're gonna take and make a point of really getting into this. We made the first series but we're gonna do quite a bit more over the next little while here. Kind of as the weather improves and stuff like that. So we're gonna be making some more online videos and maybe some DVDs and stuff like that too. we'll probably be for.
We'll keep ourselves pretty busy and out of trouble for the next few months. ⁓
Speaker 3 (1:22:23)
Yeah,
that's good. What kind of horses do you guys breed and raise?
Speaker 2 (1:22:28)
We're mainly a quarter horse outfit and that well we are a quarter horse outfit. Almost by chance in a way our horses have a fairly distinct look to them. Like they're all pretty big rugged horses. A lot of them are blue rone. We have three stallions. Every one of them are blue rone and that and they're just they're kind of big tough ranch horses and that and they're they're horses we just kind of like ourselves like we really enjoy them.
And we just find they work for a lot of people, not the color part of it, but just the type we raise because they're horses that are bred to stay sound and kind of good for a little bit of everything because our market is really for all around horses. That's for people to want to do a little bit of everything. But then we're again, we're kind of people that get bored after a while. So we have to mix things up. So not all that long ago, we bought a group of Andalusian mares and that.
Take another month or so we're gonna throw them in front of the quarter studs and stuff like that just for something There's not very many of them, but it was just something we seemed to Need to do something every once in a while to spice things up a little bit
Speaker 1 (1:23:30)
I like Andalusians. mean, I'm not trying to cut you off, but I think the idea is neat. And I like those big sturdy working quarter horses and stock horses, too. Those are what they're meant to be like that. And I don't know what the breedings, what some people are breeding for, I don't understand. But I like the kind of horses you have. But Andalusians are a ton of fun. And we're the same way we feel like we get bored.
Speaker 3 (1:23:53)
Yeah, and discipline-wise too, we're always like, flapping from.
Speaker 1 (1:23:56)
Well, know, and I don't know about you, but we live in an area where there is just so many different types of horses. So I mean, it's everything comes here for training. And I mean, I can get gated horses, I can get warm bloods, I can get stock horses, but we get, we get just such a huge variety. And I think it's great if I get a little gypsy banner pony, cool. Let's do it. You know, so I just like that variety and horses are amazing that way. That's just the difference.
in the breeds and movement and that kind of thing. So I'm with you on that.
Speaker 2 (1:24:27)
Well, when you make when you ride so many different types to again, I think it probably you guys probably the same way but it just makes you all the way around have a better feel for any horse so then when you jump on someone else like for me up if I can get along with almost any of them then if I can If I get on someone's horse at a clinic I can start helping them right away because I don't have to ride around for 20 minutes to get the feel of that horse if I can get on them and already kind of have a little bit of
a feel for them right off the bat. can make progress quite a bit quicker with them. I think like something I've noticed quite a bit, someone will, they'll really take their horsemanship far, but they'll do it on one horse. And I realized most people are going to own one horse. So I'm not, not knocking that at all, but they'll go along. They'll train that one horse up to a really impressive level and that, but that same rider will get on another horse.
and all of sudden they're really struggling and they've gotten good, but they've gotten good with that one. And they've got the feel of that horse really well. And one thing I always, again, we've run into sometimes, probably the hardest person to match up to a new horse if someone's looking to buy a horse, I find is the person that has had a really good horse that's maybe now 20 years old or something like that, and they're looking for a replacement and they want
what their old horse was. And that, they're going to go out and buy a new one that and pick up where they left off and that, it doesn't work that way because they'll get on another one. They've ridden that last horse for 10 years or 15 years, something like this. The horse and the, and them both know each other inside out and backwards. They're, they smash perfectly after all that time. But if that person just jumps out, jumps on any other horse, no matter how good that other one is, there's still going to be that while, while they have to get the feel of that new one.
And then something else a lot of times folks don't keep in mind is the old horse was never at one point, the old horse was the new horse. And that's so like the, when they first got that, the horse that they're retiring, maybe now, like they didn't mesh like clockwork in the beginning either. They had to ride those miles. They had to get the feel of each other. They had to get in sync. They had to put that time in. So you don't just jump on another one and
hit the ground running like that. Like you have to go like that horse and that rider came along and that so like I do try to tell people like not that you go steal everyone else's horse on them, but like if you're taking less, if you're trying to become a pretty good rider, if you get a chance to ride more horses than what you've got yourself, you really should take it. And that because you want to get the feel of all horses, not your horse. And that if you can get on
Little ones, big ones, all different breeds, some that are quieter, some that are a little hotter. If you can get where you can get a pretty good feel for all of them get along with most of them, you're gonna be a pretty good horseman overall, I feel anyways. that, I think like you're saying, riding that variety, I think really forces a person to get better. And that, it makes it more fun.
Speaker 1 (1:27:17)
makes it more interesting and even different movements, feeling with different movements, warm bloods trot versus a little pony trot or something. There's a huge difference.
Speaker 3 (1:27:26)
But yeah, and there are so many opportunities, I think, out there for people to get on other horses and, and, you know, ride a variety of horses. But I think sometimes people just don't take advantage of that. Right. And it does, it makes a huge difference when you're moving on from, from an old horse. So.
Speaker 2 (1:27:42)
And that, well, think it's a little bit intimidating to like, you hop on someone else's horse. You don't know it very well in most cases and that, but so I realized sometimes a person only has so much opportunity to do that. But I think if a person does have and have the opportunity, I think you sure want to take advantage of it and that. And like too, like when you take, when a person takes lessons, maybe if they can ride more than one lesson horse, again, you'll just get a bit of a feel for other horses and stuff like that.
If your friend has a reliable horse that they'd like you to for a little spin once in a while, if they offer it, say yes, as long you feel like it's a safe thing to do.
Speaker 1 (1:28:18)
Yeah, definitely. I'll tell you real quick. I've had ⁓ a couple lessons where say it's my daughter riding with a couple other people her age. So she's 11. And so they're all most of them are on lesson horses. And what I'll do is I'll have like three mounting blocks in the arena. And they'll all have to ride halted a mounting block dismount, run to the different horse run across the ring, get on a different pony and ride that one or horse. within the same lesson.
Within 10 minutes, they might be on three different horses. And so we do that in the winter time because it's a chance for them to get off the horse and run, warm up a little. Sometimes the ponies don't stay at the mounting blocks. Sometimes they do, but either way, a great little, and then I had her gal one time, this girl who wanted to obviously, you you see this where people want to pull back. So one of the ponies didn't have a bridle on it was bareback and we just had like a neck ring around it. And so she had to ride that pony.
Speaker 2 (1:28:52)
Yeah
Speaker 1 (1:29:11)
you know, without a bridle, but it was just the thing because she couldn't pull back. And so she learned to go forward. But anyway, you're absolutely spot on with different horses, ride them. And that helps people that'll help you ride your own horse so much better.
here's I was going to ask you then, and I know exactly it's hard to do that. What was a big aha moment for you as a in your horsemanship journey?
Speaker 2 (1:29:33)
⁓
trying to think about that one. I had quite a... I had a lot of small moments more than big ones that defined me. I don't know that it's an aha moment, but one of the things that made a difference for me was when I wanted to start, I thought I'd compete in a couple of colt starting competitions. And it really, because everything is on a fairly snug timeframe, I had to go back and...
I didn't really change my program at all, but I had to smooth everything off. And that, so I would go through it and something that would maybe take me a little longer, you'd have to look at it say, what is a better way and what's a smoother way? And if you looked at it as what's fast, that didn't work all that well, because you didn't want to skip things, but you wanted to say, how could I do this, but get my point across in a very easy manner to the horse.
and it made me go back and almost dissect every little tiny thing that I did. that, and then I noticed when I did that, my cold starting got smoother and overall, it just horsemanship, my horsemanship in general, I think got smoother overall. And that, because then I started making, I started to carry that habit through my other horsemanship. And I would look at it like, if one doesn't want to go into a trailer, one doesn't want to do this or that, doesn't really matter. What's the problem?
Like not just that it won't get in the trailer, but which part of it is actually causing the problem. And then what's the smoothest way to go through that? Because the smoothest way very often is the quick way, because you're presenting the information in a way the horse understands it. If you look at it as like sometimes I'll find somebody will say, I'm going to do a really good job on something. So I've worked on it for 10 months and that, and it's kind of like, well, that's sometimes that's maybe what it takes. But other times, if it took 10 months to work, it probably wasn't working that well.
and that the person that could do it in a fit, not to say I want to say quick, because I don't want to the impression I like rushing, because I don't, but the person that could do it pretty quick probably had a different approach that was a little bit better. And that so like, I kind of like to look at it and I really, the more that I could told myself, go back and analyze every little thing, don't look at the problem as being the major problem that everyone else sees,
try to look at it say, what's the little thing that's causing the whole thing to fall apart? And that and I think,
when I started approaching it that way, I think that made quite a difference.
Speaker 1 (1:31:47)
That's great.
Speaker 3 (1:31:48)
great. I think it's the perfect thing to lead people with because it does it boils down to that one little thing and it seems sometimes like it's not even associated with the big problem. It seems so far off you know but it actually it actually is
Speaker 1 (1:31:51)
Right.
Speaker 2 (1:31:54)
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (1:32:03)
large contributor to it.
