Speaker 1 (00:35)
So hello friends, welcome everybody today. So today I have Wendy Murdock here and she is going to be talking to us really about the value of learning about our bodies, about ourselves, about our kind of internal responses to things, as well as our horses and helping us find ways to learn how we through exploration can figure out how to be more secure riders, how to help our horses be more secure in themselves. And Wendy's gonna help us.
really discover the feel part, which is the meaningful part, finding that joy and that growing and finding the journey between you and your horse that means the most to both of you.
Speaker 2 (01:13)
I did clinics at your mom's place and you were a teenager. How long ago was that?
Speaker 1 (01:18)
Yeah, my gosh, that was like the late 90s. I've learned so much from you. really have and I have applied it throughout all of my teachings. I mean, it really, it's something I totally integrated and I just loved it. You turned me on to Feldenkrais. ⁓ I ended up taking some classes at our UW system. had some workshops on the pelvis and on, you know, the head, neck and shoulders. And I went to those because of you.
Speaker 2 (01:32)
Yeah!
That's That's really great.
Speaker 1 (01:44)
Yeah, I really appreciate it because it's because I have arthritis too. I had limitations and and you were able to help me learn how through alternate paths of movement you can find actually still a really good functional body inside of you, which was pretty. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03)
And that's, know, I've worked with a lot of people with arthritis and stuff and it's amazing how when we start to look at possibilities, we realize that actually we don't have to let the disease totally control our lives, right? That's so true of so many things that people, you know, like I was just doing a clinic over in the Netherlands and I had people, this one woman and she had, how many things had she broken? Just an amazing number of things. you know, I was like, yeah, and that's normal.
Speaker 1 (02:14)
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:28)
You know, like when I do clinics and I ask people, you know, about their injuries and at first they don't, they tell me, yeah, well, I maybe, I don't know, I'm fine. And then an hour later, ⁓ yeah, I forgot I broke my back two weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (02:40)
That's too funny.
Speaker 2 (02:41)
It's hysterical and so they start telling me all these injuries they've had. You know your horse knows all of them because it's affected your body and you start to move differently and so the horse has to compensate for that and it's not like we have to have a perfect body or have no injuries like I will always have effects from the injuries I've had but we don't have to let them override our function in terms of you know optimum so you know people with scoliosis or you know
you know, whatever broken back stuff. It's so many people I find they think that's limiting them. And then when they find the better function, they realize it's not just really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:16)
Yeah, and that's really neat to be able to share and help people through that because it's not only just making a difference in their bodies, but the body and mind are so connected.
Speaker 2 (03:26)
which you can't separate them. can't honestly can't separate them. So so I do this thing. So I've taken the sure foot pads and I and I use it with people now in my clinics, which a friend of mine was like, years after I started she was, I put my students on it. It's really great. I'm like, that's a fabulous idea. So I make this balance trail. Some people call it hopscotch. Some people call it the trail of torture.
Speaker 1 (03:43)
You
Speaker 2 (03:49)
But I send everybody through it and I use not just your foot pads, but a variety of different unstable surfaces, right? And I have everybody go through it the first time. And after that, you know, and they all manage to handle all the different objects, even one that's around when you have to put both feet on. That's kind of a challenge. And then I call, well, that's like the horse being out in the field. You know, the horse in the field, he can go and find water and get hay and play and whatever. And he can deal with his own body as long as there's no outside influence.
And then I put them through the trail again and I push on them. And that's sort of my evil side. People think they're so nice. And actually I have this little evil side because I push on them and I can push in different places. the thing that lately I've realized it's so fascinating because I knock almost every single person off the pads, right? And the more unstable the surface, the easier. But I get people like, I did this little lecture up in Canada when I was up at the Equivo workshop.
and I called it balance versus behavior. And we tend to think that behavior is ruled by, know, that we can condition out of it, right? But actually balance has so much to do with behavior. And so when I push on people, some people want to hit me, some people get really upset, some people want to run away, some people feel, you know, mortified. And those are all the emotions that horses go through when they're out of balance, right? Some of them want to bite.
Kick some of want to run away some of them get really depressed some of them just kind of get sullen Some of them just take it and that's what I think one of these people is they have the same reactions because we both have what's known as Vegas nerve which is the biggest nerve in our body tenth cranial has a piece that goes to the heart and the gut and The biggest deal with Vegas the biggest question whether it's a horse or a human that's being asked is am I So when I push on the person they're not safe anymore
right? Because they're not balanced. And this is how we feel when we're on horseback. So whether it's on sure foot pads or on horseback or the horse itself, when we feel out of balance, we're going to react instead of act, right? Right. Or respond. And so then I show everybody how to be in balance because I don't want to leave them like feeling like, my god, you know. So I show them that. I know I'm not that mean, right? So I show them what they have to do to be in balance. And it's the same thing they have to do in riding.
And they've got to be solid in their back and allow the knee to go forward down so that the hip can open to the degree that I'm applying a force. So if you do more than I'm applying, you're going to land on your face, well actually on your knees. And if you do less, you're bracing. And it's about equal and opposite forces that you have to be able to adapt to the amount of force I'm applying and respond to that. And as soon as I do that with people, the thing that's so fascinating is several. One, they have perfect ear shoulder hip alignment.
You don't have to tell them to look up. They automatically look up. They come up with their head because their pelvis is over their feet and they're in balance. Two, their arms drop. So I don't tell anybody about their hands and arms anymore unless I make sure that their base of support is really secure. Because without the base of support, they can't give up their hands, right? Right. You know, this is like I see instructors tell people to do stuff with their hands, but they haven't addressed the base of support. So they can't, or if they do, they're still not secure. So they're going to grab again.
So I'm always looking at if I make the basis support more secure, whether it's a horse or a person, right? Sure foot for the horse and sure foot pads and then my riding stuff for the rider, then they feel more secure and then they can, they can respond. They can hear what I'm saying. They can pay attention to what the horse is doing. They can interact and have communication because they're not worrying about their balance. And so the more I do this, this, in a sense, the simpler it becomes in that
Speaker 1 (07:26)
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:33)
Most of the behavior I see from people and horses and especially like people riding, there the women are afraid. Well, why are you afraid? You feel insecure. Why are you insecure? You don't have a good base of support. Do you know you don't have a good base of support? Well, you know something's not right, but you're not sure what to do to fix it, right? You're not sure what to look. And the other really interesting thing with using the balance trail is I'll put my hands, say on their belt area at the back and I'll say, rest on my hand.
and they throw their chest back or they pull their shoulders or they move somewhere. They're not moving where my hand is. So that body mind thing that you mentioned, like, yeah. Their self image and their, and that's a whole Feldingkrais idea, right? Self image, their self image of where to move isn't clear enough to be able to respond in a way that's going to make them secure. So we have to remap, right? They have to figure out, okay,
Where is my hand? It's on your lower back. It's not on your upper back. So you don't need to move your upper back or do anything there. Right? You need to find my hand. And first they do all these habits that they don't know they have. I can, and I, and I'll show them it's still not secure. And then suddenly, and it only takes like a nanosecond, suddenly they'll feel it, right? Just for a split second. And the nervous system is so amazing that as soon as there's a sense of balance, it's like, Whoa,
What was that? And then how do I get that back? How do I do that again? You know exactly what I'm talking about. You're laughing, I can see it.
Speaker 1 (09:02)
Totally. Well, you helped me find it. it's and I love it's so interesting because you're pointing out how you're actually dialing it into this place where you're helping people on the ground, finding out when their vagus nerve is threatened, and that system is threatened, you're figuring out what their type of response is because it's so different. I love how you say you know, people respond differently, and horses respond differently. So you need to find these responses.
And that's kind of getting to the root of it, right? Help increase the awareness. And then three or mean exercises. remember at one point, me wrapped up like a mummy. looked ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (09:39)
⁓
that's right. We did do that. Yeah, well, yeah, but it was perfect because it
Speaker 1 (09:45)
you're
teaching the feel. And I think that's, that's something that people, you know, they think, you can't even teach feel. But I encourage everybody go to a Wendy Bergdott clinic because she will teach you feel. And it's neat because it's like you hit on it and you get it. And all of a sudden your body starts seeking it out because you now know. So instead of, and it's a feel thing. So it's not like you're saying, put this here, put that there.
What you're doing is you're saying, you know, what's happening, and you're questioning the body and you're encouraging the body to find it. Yeah. And then, and then when it does, it's magical, right? then people can find it on their own. don't want somebody to be telling.
Speaker 2 (10:28)
And that's the point is that, know, first of all, when I work, I work through movement, right? And you know that most of my teaching, like the balance trail. And I always tell people that's how horses learn. They learn through movement. And we're actually, we learn through movement too, but we forget. We forgot that all that childhood development was movement. We didn't really have language or really any kind of intellectual concept until we're well in our twenties, right?
Speaker 1 (10:52)
I'm out.
Speaker 2 (10:53)
We're learning through movement. So we're just like the horses and that there's no language in the motor part of the brain. So since riding is so much about movement, trying to put words on it is really, really difficult. So I keep the words to an absolute minimum, right? Really simple, but I give them a lot of feeling and like you know, I'll show them like the board under the foot to where to feel the foot in relation to the stroke, pressure, and just everything I do is about
But that's the thing is that I you know like movement is like when we learn through movement we own it too that's the other piece right and so that's the piece with the balance trail or mounted work that I do is I don't tell people to do this or that I give them options and then I let the horse vote okay go back you know go back and forth between the old place and the new place and the horses with your foot they do that all by themselves you don't have to tell them that you'll watch them they'll go back and forth
tense the neck and let it go and tense the neck and let it go. But people give me the hardest time about this, right? They tell people to go back and forth between the old place and the new place and people complain about it. Right? They don't want to go back to the old place. They don't want to experiment. But you know, what I always tell them is if I'm not there, how are you going to find the new place if you don't map it out? Right?
So it's about experimentation and exploration rather than getting it right or wrong. I mean, there's no wrong. It's just, you know, what does this do when you do this and what happens when you do this? And the horse gets to vote, right? He gets to show you which one makes more sense to him.
Speaker 1 (12:23)
Right. Yeah,
that's so cool. That's so cool. And I think it's so important for us to recognize that and be able to read our horse's responses and to know if it's working for the horse as well. And that's so nice to have. They're actually a tool, a biofeedback tool for us to tell us where we need to be.
Speaker 2 (12:40)
they're the biggest biofeedback on the planet, right? And they're so fast. They're so fast.
Speaker 1 (12:46)
They are, and they're so new. I mean, it's just like the littlest thing, right? And they're.
Speaker 2 (12:51)
And
the hard part is that people don't realize, you know, I one time had a student, she was fairly novice and I put her on my reigning horse, Blondie. And I, you know, I gave her a lesson and she said something to me that was so profound at the end of lesson. She said, if I hadn't been there, she would have thought what the horse was doing was, was not listening to her. But in fact, the horse was doing everything her body was saying and she didn't know what she was saying. So she thought the horse was misbehaving.
And it was such an eye-opener because I was like, wow, how often do people misunderstand that actually what they thought and what they did were two different things? Like when people have problems with canner, I take them off the horse and I watch them canner on the ground because I can see what their thought of canner is. And so often what they...
think they should do for canner is not what they should do for it. Like they turn or they twist or they drag a leg or then they wonder why the horse doesn't canner well, right? And so I improve their canner on the ground so they have a clear understanding of what canner motion is. And when they get back on the horse, it's so much better because now they're giving the horse a clear message about what they want, right? It's like, it's so important that we take the time to stop and ask, do we really understand
what that movement is or do we really understand what the instructor said or does the instructor make it really clear about how to use our body and what they're asking.
Speaker 1 (14:16)
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:17)
So so many times, know, like lateral work is a big, big one. You know, people say, well, I want to start doing lateral. I'm like, great, get off your horse and show me leg yields. And you don't have it, you know, they do all kinds of things and all have a work picture, right? So there's no wonder that the horse can't do leg yield because they're not clear about it.
Right. when the trainer gets on, the trainer has a clear picture in their mind and body. It goes together and the horse does it. And then they wonder why can't I do it? Well, you're not clear enough about what you're doing and how to do the movement. I tell people all the time, get on all fours, crawl around on the ground. because if you can't do it on your own four feet, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:53)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:57)
Then how are you going to understand what it is the horse needs to do especially if the horse is learning? Right
Speaker 1 (15:04)
Right. No, I think that's great. And I think it's so empowering to people as well, because a lot of people, get into this place where they're like, well, I can't and I'm struggling and it's just never right. And you're giving them such key tools to really break it down, allow them to find the feel, allow them to feel the organization of the hoof falls as the horse does, like the elder does.
Speaker 2 (15:29)
And
not feel embarrassed or wrong. I I've taken, you know, like upper level riders and watch them do flying changes and go, okay, that's why you're having a problem. So it's not about, you know, some people think, why do I have to go back and do that? Because everybody needs to know you can, right? I mean, you need to know you can. And that's where you can break it down and sort it out and really make it clear. Because if you're not clear, how is the horse supposed to do it?
Speaker 1 (15:54)
Right? yeah, totally. So that's, that's awesome. So tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got here because you are like, ⁓ just this wealth of knowledge. And it goes so deep and it's so varied and it applies to absolutely any discipline. How did this? How did it happen? Like what happened to get you here?
Speaker 2 (16:14)
Well, I always say that gravity is not discipline specific, right? ⁓ you know when people don't a lot of like Western I write this right I'm like gravity doesn't care what Sal you're sitting in what kind of horse you're on or what discipline you ride, right? So I have ⁓ I was in undergrad for animal science and then I went to grad school for equine reproductive physiology, which is horse hormones, right and while I was there I was managing an event barn and we
Speaker 1 (16:19)
So.
Speaker 2 (16:40)
had a bunch of horses we'd gotten from Georgia. And so I wanted to be a tough event rider. So I thought, okay, there's this one horse that I knew it could rear and I was gonna ride it. And I got on and it reared up and hit me in the face, but you gotta be tough, right? You can't let the horse win. At least that's what I thought at the time. And he flipped over and then he rolled over me and punched my femur through the socket and then kicked me between the legs when he got up and broke my pelvis in two places.
So needless to say, that straightened me off the ground, took me to the hospital and I had surgery the next day and I had three pins in my left hip socket. So, you know, 15 seconds and it changed my life and I was about 20, I was 27. So I got back on a horse in six months, a little tiny gray pony, about 13 hands and, cause I was determined to get back on. And the thing was that because I had this,
I mean, when they did the surgery, I have this huge incision on the left side of my leg. It's called a Mercedes incision because it costs that much. It's the symbol. It's the Mercedes symbol, right? So, you know, they cut through all this muscle. And so I didn't have the strength in my leg. I didn't have the function in my leg. And most normal instructors, they don't know how to deal with people that are that injured. They just don't know what to tell them.
Speaker 1 (17:37)
You
Speaker 2 (17:56)
So a year after my accident, went to my, I met Linda Tellington-Jones. Somebody had given me a newsletter while I was laying in the hospital. And I went to her training a year later and I walked in and it was obvious that this was a good place for me because it was such a different approach. And Linda's the one who introduced me to the Feldenkrais method. So, cause she had taken the Feldenkrais training with Dr. Feldenkrais in the seventies in San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (18:22)
Wow, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:23)
So that's where team came from was this combination of the Feldenkrais method and Linda's course knowledge. So that's where I got exposed to the Feldenkrais method. And then a year later, I was at another training with Linda in Connecticut and Sally Swift was there. So that's where I met Senator Sally Swift. And so then I started working with her and I finished with her in 92. But the thing for me is being a scientist by training, it's got to make sense to me and I have to figure out how it logically
works within like the known laws, right, and with the body. So there were a lot of times when an instructor would tell me something and even some things with center writing that didn't make sense to me. And so I, you know, I really would break it down and I really look at it. And of course I met Joyce Herman, you know, Joyce, I met her in 1990 and learned about saddles from Tony Gonzalez and Joyce and Andy Foster.
And of course, you know, just took a lot of training with, you know, Dr. Clayton and John Zahorek, because, you know, I just have this desire to understand how things work. I, you know, added the anatomy and the biomechanics. And then I finally went back and took the Feldenkrais training starting in 2001 and trained for 16 years with, I did the guild training in the United States, and then I trained with Mia Siegel. She was Feldenkrais' assistant.
for 15 years before I started training. And she was, she's friends with Linda because she was assisting Dr. Feldenkrais at the training that Linda took. it's this really interesting thing because the circles keep completing over and over. And I think you probably find that. So yeah, so I added the Feldenkrais training, the formally training, and I just use that every single day in my teaching. it's...
Speaker 1 (19:56)
woke.
Speaker 2 (20:06)
It's so powerful. you know, when people come to me and ask me, well, what should I do if I want to be a better teacher, better instructor? I'm like, take the Feldenkrais training because it's, it's, it's the root of movement. It's the root of function. And it's really that function and understanding movement in our own body. That's going to help us understand function in the horse, function in our students, you know, and, it's just so powerful to go through that process as you, as you know, cause you've been doing some Feldenkrais work.
Speaker 1 (20:34)
it's so, again, I keep saying empowering, but it really, this work that you do in the Feldenkrais work, really empowers us to listen to our body and to learn from them and to explore and to question. And think that's where these two breakthroughs actually occur.
Speaker 2 (20:51)
Yeah, yeah, it's
so much in the experimentation as opposed to like trying to get it right. It's like when you when you let go of right and start looking at well what's going on right now and really getting present with what's happening with the horse or what's happening with yourself. That's where really the magic happens and that's that's why I love sure foot so much because it's really about being very present with the horses and observing and really seeing
Like the pads are like a magnifying glass. So when you put a horse on a pad, you see like a breathing change in three to 10 seconds where you see eye blinks or lip, licking shoe or next lowering. And then you can watch how they're balancing over that foot and how they organize in relation to the foot, which is key for the horse because that's all it gets is his foot. know, like so sure foot, I discovered, ⁓ in 2012 and it was another 15 second moment of like, ⁓ you know, mind blowing change.
when I put the first horse on a pad. But the thing that's so meaningful with SureFoot for me is that we give the horses the chance to show us what's going on with them. So it's not training, it's an offer and we're there to facilitate and there's no fail. So even if a horse doesn't stand on a pad, which you know doesn't happen that often but does happen,
you learn so much about the horse. Like I was just in Canada and I had this horse in for three days. He didn't stand our pad. But what we realized was the size of his bubble, how he didn't feel safe, how to help him feel safe, how to help him become curious and then trusting so that we could start to offer. And then yesterday I got an email and the owner has his foot on the pad. And it's so exciting because she, she had been
pushing him more than he was really ready for, but she didn't realize it. And so, and he was born this way. Nothing happened to this horse, she bred him, but he came out really, really sensitive. And so she's done a lot with him and he's a really neat horse, I love him. But the whole issue's about his feet and what he touches and how he reacts to it. He's dumped her.
quite a few times because of it, because he's so quick and he would get disturbed. But when we really broke it down and really looked at the smaller details and how to help him trust to overcome those anxieties and, and really feel safe with the person, we're going back to safety, right? Now, now he's learning how to trust her and that he has a choice so he can approach or he can step back or, know, like I let him like hide behind me and look at the pad.
but she really got to see just how deep this goes and how important it is to work it through for everybody's safety and comfort, right? So that's what I love about Surefoot is it's it's felt in Christ. It's totally felt in Christ, right? It's this whole idea of exploration and no fail and learning and observing. And the cool thing about the horses is that it's so profound to them.
that when you watch, you know, it's so hard to watch a video and really get what it's about. When you see a horse stand on a sure foot pad and you see the degree of relaxation and then the fact that it carries on afterward, which I still don't understand. Like, right, I'm a scientist, right, by training. And I have asked so many people the past seven years, what do you think's happening? How do you think this is working? And we all have our guesses. That's what they are. They're guesses. They're educated guesses, right? Uh-huh.
We don't totally know how it's working. We just see that it really does work. And it does work, not just at the time the horse was on the pad, but the effects can last. Like, I was, my horse, Dennis, was working on my horse a few months ago. And she said, you know that sure foot pad you have? I'm like, yeah. She said, I have a client and the horse had to be tranquilized for the farrier and they did sure foot with that horse two times. And now they don't have to tranquilize them anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:47)
How?
Speaker 2 (24:47)
And I was like, wow, that's awesome,
This is a story, you know, I don't even know the person she's talking about. I don't know the horse. I just know that they got the pad and they did the process and now everybody's safer and the horse is better.
Speaker 1 (25:00)
Right, right. It is wild. You know, my mom told me, because you know my parents have a farm and stuff and just because you've been there and you've taught there. So my mom has the sure foot. I haven't experimented with it, but I need to because she told me she's like, you really have to try this. It's just it's so interesting. And she's like, when I when I put cashmere on it, it makes such a difference in how she is she just totally melts. And, and I was like,
Speaker 2 (25:02)
Why?
See you.
Speaker 1 (25:28)
Because my mom's
Speaker 2 (25:30)
Like the weirdest concept.
just want to admit that, okay?
Speaker 1 (25:34)
How exactly did you, I mean like...
Speaker 2 (25:37)
So, okay, so it's like, obviously it comes out of my Feldingkrais experiences. And I had this horse that I would see him two days a month, Monday, Tuesday, every month. And in the past, in the month between, she changed the saddle and she put a jumping saddle on it. It was crooked and it put some pressure on the right back corner. And so then the farrier quick the horse. And when I saw him, he was lame in the right hind leg. And so we switched back to the dressage saddle just to see if that made a difference. And the horse was a bit better, but he really wasn't.
totally better. So I knew I was gonna see her the next day and I'm thinking about her and then I went home and I was talking to Joyce Harmon, ⁓ Dr. Joyce Harmon because she's where my horse lives actually is her house.
Speaker 1 (26:17)
Really?
yeah. I to get Joyce on for the fair and she was just too busy and didn't have time to get it all.
Speaker 2 (26:23)
That's too bad that would have been great. But anyway, so she's she's amazing ⁓ Yeah, she's really amazing. So anyway, this was in 2012 when standing desks were just becoming popular and she's like I want to stand at my computer instead of sit like okay and then I want to stand on a pad and so then she while we're talking she said, know, they put dogs on pads for rehabilitation and so I'm tapping away on my laptop while I'm talking to her and I'm looking at these pictures of dogs on different pads and
Speaker 1 (26:29)
ends.
Speaker 2 (26:51)
And I said to her, do you think that would work for a horse? And she said, I don't know, but just, you know, when you do it, just time it for 15 seconds. I'm like, okay. So I grabbed something out of my shed and I drive to the lesson and all my students are used to me doing crazy things, right? So I walk up and I go, I'm going to stick this pad under your horse's foot. And she's on the horse, right? So I stick it underneath and I time it for 15 seconds and the horse walks off. He's totally different. 15 seconds. And I'm like, what happened?
So he spent the rest of time just messing with it. And I could only do his back feet. couldn't do it. He wouldn't let me do anything with his front feet. Fine, no problem. The next horse was a quarter horse that had done Western pleasure and the woman wanted to do events. the canner wasn't very good. So he loved the front feet but didn't want the back feet. But in an hour, we had a round canner. And then the next horse was a halflinger. In an hour, we had a round canner. And I'm like, I don't know what this is, but this is something. This is meaningful to the horses.
Yeah. started calling up my dressage friends and like, can I come over and do this weird They're sure, come on over. Well, then I got on a plane and I flew out to Washington state to do a clinic and I didn't take anything with me and I got out there and I was looking at this horse and like, I need to put a pad under his foot. So somebody had something in their house and we just messed around and all the horses changed. And I'm like, this is so cool. So then I
Speaker 1 (27:54)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:12)
flew home and then went off to Holland, right? A little bit of jet lag there. anyway, I go to Holland and I take my pad with me and I work with this horse and I video it and I go to Mia Siegel, right? And I say, Mia, watch this video. Tell me what you see. And she's watching and she's like, look, look there, there's changes in C67. And now look, the pelvis just changed and she's, I'm on the horse in the video and she's watching and she's saying,
Look, there's the change there and there's the change there and you could see it all these changes, right? And I was like, wow, that's really amazing. So I just started putting pads underneath every horse I could find, you know, and I've been doing it for seven and a half years now. I have veterinarians using it as rehab, like Dr. Rachel Bellini. She's amazing. She's a holistic vet. She just wrote a post on my short clip page.
all about stability, should put two parts and just validating the importance of stability in horses and how we take it for granted and really, you know, it's like people. You know, we think horses are athletes, okay, great, so that they really know where their feet are. Not true, right? Or that they really are grounded, not true. And, you know, they're just like us. They get injured, they change, they get habits, you know, they have a bad fitting saddle or their teeth were bad and then they finally got it fixed, but they have a habit.
And I've talked to Dr. Robert Bowker, you he's this really amazing guy up at Michigan State. He's now retired, studying horse's feet and looking at all the nerve endings in the foot and the whole neurology of the hoof. And, you know, it's, you start to realize, well, I did, how important the hoof really is. Like we take it for granted. We take it for granted. You're going to get on your horse.
You're going to go out in Colorado and go chase some cows and that horse is going to put his feet down just right every single stride so that you can, know, kinner across the horizon over all kinds of terrain and your horse is going to stay upright with you on its back. Right? And that's all because the foot gives reports back to the brain and the brain gives reports back to the foot so that it lands in the right place. You know, and the more you think about it, the worse
Speaker 1 (30:17)
Great.
perfectly
every time, right? ⁓
Speaker 2 (30:22)
And
the more stunning, more amazed I am at how incredible the system is, the design of the system, to give the feedback, to organize everything so that you can go over an event course and have the horse land and actually stay upright. It's just like crazy. And how important that foot is to meet the ground. And so if you have a horse,
Speaker 1 (30:39)
Bye.
Speaker 2 (30:46)
Like I have people actually that are starting horses and they put them on sure foot pads before they start them because the more balanced the horse is, the easier they're going to start. And I have people with rehab, I have one person out in Colorado and whenever they get a horse in for training, they put it on sure foot pads and so many of the problems that were the reason why the horse came to them go away, right?
Speaker 1 (31:07)
I have
to do with like the procreoception?
Speaker 2 (31:09)
or
like what part of it. So, you know, there's, that's the thing is there's so much going on in that foot. You've got the proprioceptors, which tell us where we are in space. You've got fascia, you've got Pacinian receptors, Rafini receptors, you've got acupuncture tang points. I mean, I'm starting to think of the feet as like four brains, four little brains down at the end of the leg that have to report back to the central brain to tell everybody, hey, this is where we are. And this is the timing, right?
And so if there's a misfire or a misconnection or, you know, something's created a habit like the horse, say he got injured. And so now he's just like a person offloaded that leg for a while. He's not going to move the same unless we bring back the function, restore it to function the way it was before the injury.
Speaker 1 (31:55)
it's almost encouraging a reorganization of the entire body through everything because it's all connected.
Speaker 2 (32:02)
Right,
you're reorganizing the entire body in relation to the foot because the foot's what meets the ground and how that foot meets the ground is going to determine how that whole system organizes in relation to that foot. Right, so the horse with a thousand pound horse you've got a 40 pound head at the end of a three foot lever arm of the neck, right, with the center of mass at the 13th to 14th the counterweight of the bridge eight feet away from the head at least. Right, I mean from a mechanics perspective
This thing is amazing organizing. And so that foot has to hit the ground in such a way to keep the whole system upright.
Speaker 1 (32:37)
That's it.
Speaker 2 (32:38)
say that horse, and this is one of the things you can see on sure foot pads. You know, I look at the foot and I think of 12 o'clock being straight ahead and six o'clock at the back, three, nine, right? So I think of a clock and you can see where horses have more pressure at say one, two and three on the right foot and 10, 11 on the left. So that they're dropping their weight in. Well, that's going to affect where their shoulder is relative to the foot. And so say you have that on one foot and you want to make a turn and the horse is dropping in on that foot in terms of weight load.
and the shoulder leans out, well, the horse is gonna have to go with the shoulder weight leaning out because it's not underneath, the foot's not underneath the shoulder. you know, if you wanna be, you gotta have the foot in the right place.
Speaker 1 (33:14)
right?
Yeah, it's so interesting because it goes right back to where you started in the beginning with the vagus nerve. How is your reaction when you get out of being stable?
Speaker 2 (33:23)
Yeah!
And this
is what I'm seeing so often that when I put horses on sure foot pads that are behavior problems or you people want to call them resistant or they're you know they're pushy or they're you know whatever behavior you to attribute. I put them on sure foot pads and they get grounded and pretty soon those behaviors I mean literally can disappear in minutes or less. So I went to one place and they had this thoroughbred they were a thoroughbred rehab center.
And I had 15 minutes because I was catching a flight and I walk in the barn and I look at this gray horse and I was like, I want your gray horse. She says, no, no, no, he's a butt head. I'm like, I really want your gray horse now. You know, no, no, no, he's such a butt head. You don't want that horse. I'm like, yes, I do. So finally she relented. She brought the horse out. I had the half physio pad, which we usually use to like when farriers are working this stuff to make horses more comfortable. Anyway, it's all I had with me. Right. So I put the foot on the, on the pad right front foot.
And in 10 seconds, this horse dropped its neck, closed its eyes, and she was completely blown away because all the behavior stopped. Like stopped, right? No chain plating, no throwing his head around, no fussing, no stomping. And it was like in 15 seconds. And I've seen this before. you know, I wasn't surprised. She was completely blown away. And it's like, is this horse a butt head or is this horse unbalanced and insecure?
And it's a third right off the track where so many of the horses have, you know, that classic race horse shooing, which doesn't give them good support. Right. And so literally in, in 15 seconds, this horse just took a big breath and just closed his eyes and was just like, thank you. Right. So how much of it could be just discomfort, you know, foot sore or, you know, feeling fought like they're falling or, you know, think about it.
Think about it, I take a hold of your head and you feel like you're falling and I tell you, you can't move. Exactly. Exactly, right? How are you going to feel? You're going get upset. You're say, wow, you're telling me I have to stand still, but you've got the thing I need to balance, my head. I can't put it where I need it. It weighs 40 pounds at the end of a three foot lever arm. And I need to bring it over here and you're telling me not to do that. Now what do I do? I move. And then you're yelling me because I moved because I was trying to my balance.
Speaker 1 (35:44)
Yeah, that is so interesting. That is absolutely fascinating. I will be going over to my parents and
Speaker 2 (35:50)
About time, yeah.
know, and like with Vegas nerve, Vegas, like unhappy Vegas is, can go either hyper or hypo, but horses that fool around, they're not okay. Like so many times we think of horses as just being behavior problems when they're messing around and that, you know, go to pick up their foot and they drag it out of your hand or they paw with it. And we think that, you're just being a stupid horse or you're just, you know,
spoiled. But those horses are actually not okay. Those horses are insympathetic, too high. And so Vegas is not happy. And when you offer them comfort and they feel secure, those behaviors go away. And I had another horse I remember for the first day of the clinic, it was two day clinic. He would just
He paw and paw and paw and I try to put his foot on a and he drag his leg out of my hand and I'm not going to hold him if he's going to do that, right? But he would just throw his leg and throw his leg and I got him on a pad a little bit and I didn't worry about it. Next day he comes in the ring. I can put all four feet on a pad, switched off like a light, fell asleep. So, you know, how much of it is that they just feel like the little kid in class that fools around, that gets the negative attention because they're not okay, right? And they're
they're feeling uncomfortable. And then if we can make them comfortable, the next thing the behavior is gone, rather than constantly trying to deal with a behavior that's really a balance problem. Right? And I'm not sure if it's not going to work 100%. Nothing works 100%. Right? We all know that. But it's worth the try because when it works, it's like so amazing. you can, sure if it's portable.
Speaker 1 (37:14)
Right?
Speaker 2 (37:29)
I have people take it to the horse shows, they put the horses on the pads before the competition. You can use pre and post exercise. I have people with endurance, women in Australia, and she used the pads at the Shahrazad 400K endurance ride where they're doing 80K a day. And she did two to three minutes per horse. And at the end of the ride, she didn't see any of the compression patterns in the horses that she'd seen for the past six years when she'd done the ride.
Speaker 1 (37:42)
Cheese. ⁓
Speaker 2 (37:52)
So she had seen like, yeah, soreness that would start up in the withers and then work down because they're on bitumen and it's cambered, so sloped tar roads. And this time she didn't see that. So two to three minutes per horse, just imagine your endurance horses, how much better they're going to be if we can reset them at every break. It's not illegal because it's just, it's not a drug.
Speaker 1 (38:17)
No, no, they're just standing on something.
Speaker 2 (38:19)
Exactly.
So anywhere you want your horse to be calmer, more confident, you know, more secure, better behaved, that's where you can use Surefoot. And I've literally stopped at a lesson and put the horse on pads and gotten immediately after the pad something that we were trying to get for 45 minutes until I thought about using the pads.
Speaker 1 (38:38)
⁓ man, that is so fascinating. so, so just out of this, you know, thought, ⁓ just out there. And, when you explain it, I can completely see how it does all the things you do with us people, let's reorganize and find security within through being in balance with gravity. That's exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:52)
Yeah!
Exactly. Yeah,
because you know, since you've worked with me, you know that that's really what I'm after with people. And this just does it for the horse. And, you know, like I put people on the sure foot pads, but the difference with horses is we see this deep level of relaxation. They look super tranquil, like they'll even like close their eyes and they look like they're sleeping, but they're not. They're just really internally processing. And the reason I know that is because when you take them off,
you let them walk for a minute or two if it's their first time, and you can go right to trot or canter. So they're not asleep, they're just really experiencing something so profound that's internal, that's important to them, that the feedback system from the foot, which we don't fully understand, is making a huge shift in the brain. Huge shift.
Speaker 1 (39:49)
That is so neat. And I think it's so important for people to hear that the horse's behaviors are not, they're an expression of what they're feeling inside. They're not the behavior and the things that we kind of will mentally attribute to the behavior. They're not being bad or being naughty or it's what's going on inside. And when you can address that, address it so easy. mean, what a simple, it's worth a try for anybody, right?
Speaker 2 (40:13)
Absolutely, it's worth a try. And that's what I tell people. like, you know, because like, and rehab, if you have a horse that's laid up, you do all the other legs that are okay, because then you can keep all the little tiny postural muscles in play. You can keep them working while the horse is laid up so that you're not deconditioning completely. And so then when the vet gives the okay, you do the leg that's been injured and you always start with hard and work from hard to soft, right? Unless like if you have a laminitic horse,
then you go to soft. You just give them as much comfort as you can. But you know, that's all explained on the, I have a of, a lot of videos and stuff on my YouTube channel, Murdoch Method. There's tons of videos about sure foot there and you can see lots of horses and on my Facebook page, Surefoot Equine. Cause it's, you really need to at least watch video this to see what's going on. And it's like, like your mom has been telling you, so that's great. ⁓
Speaker 1 (41:02)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep. And I really, it's ridiculous with this fair and stuff. haven't written, I've written maybe three times in the last four months.
Speaker 2 (41:10)
This has been amazing this fair. It's like really caught on like wildfire, hasn't it?
Speaker 1 (41:15)
It
has I'm really excited. I'm really excited. And what I, you know, what I really like about it is I've done all these different disciplines. And I always feel like it's one's pitting against the other. And I just don't like that feel because there's so much to be gained from everybody and having this eclectic mix of people and what a rich learning experience. And so so excited about that piece of it. Like people that would not have ever found you are now going to find you.
Speaker 2 (41:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:44)
and they're going to resonate, you know, or not all of them because they might not be ready for it and that's okay. But it can be exposed and not have to, you know, pack up and travel and do all the stuff that is required of going to a fair, which some people don't get to them.
Speaker 2 (41:58)
Right. And you know, like, I've been going to Equitana in Germany, in Essen, Germany, which is the biggest horse expo in the world. It's nine days. It's, I've forgotten how many square meters of floor space, like 250,000 people through the door. It's a madhouse. And it's nine days.
Speaker 1 (42:14)
And it's mad.
Speaker 2 (42:16)
You know, it's like exhausting, but it's also amazing and you know it's to bring, you know, that kind of level here it's really hard to do, but see through online you can get all those people together where people can get exposed to them. It's really awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:31)
Cool, and I so appreciate you doing this interview and people are gonna get so much. It's just like jam packed with information.
Speaker 2 (42:38)
I'm so glad you're doing this. It's great. It's really awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:41)
Well, thank you and thank you everybody for watching the interview and joining Wendy and I. And I appreciate you all for joining us, all of us, the presenters and people on this journey of launching a new kind of event that's.
Speaker 2 (42:54)
Yeah,
and really the bottom line is having a better relationship with your horse. That's really the bottom line is that we, know, through this experience people can gather information so that they can improve that relationship with their horse, which is just so important. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (43:12)
It is. It's that journey, isn't it? it's the experimentation and that it's okay to be wrong. Just play around and you'll kind of find what
Speaker 2 (43:22)
Yeah,
that's more childlike. And when we were kids, like I didn't have a pony when I was a kid, but I had a horse and I did all kinds of things that, you know, I never told my mom, right? Like I would not tell her I you know, some of the things I did. you know, in that child mind, you just play with stuff. You don't have any judgment. You're not like trying to get it right or wrong. And obviously when we're older, we do have to think of
Speaker 1 (43:32)
you
Speaker 2 (43:46)
safety and so that's where if we listen to Vegas and we listen to our own self and go okay this makes me nervous what do I have to do to make myself feel safe but then we can also by doing that have the exploration of going well what you know what is that about how can I feel safe and how can I make it better for me and my horse and really have a good time.
Speaker 1 (44:04)
Right, Cool. Well, thank you for that, All right, well, bye everybody.
Speaker 2 (44:07)
Welcome. Thanks so much. Bye.
