speaker-0 (00:00)
Today I'm joined by Rachel Jessup, Kirsten Nelson, and Lynn Reardon. And we're going to be going over something that's I think a really important topic that can be very difficult for us to sort out when we're in the moment working with our horse and even when we're reflecting back. And that's revolving around the question of when things aren't working.
How do we know that it's our horse is an understanding or maybe they've got some fear or there's pain or there's something mentally that's blocking them? How do we, how do we sort through it and know exactly what our horse is showing us in that moment? And so that's the topic of today's panel. And the community weighed in on the questions that we're going to be asking. So for those of you that let us know what questions to ask, I really appreciate that.
The way this works is every presenter has about three minutes and then I will let them know and they've got another minute or two to wrap up. So the first question is what are some of the subtle signs that something deeper may be going on? So Rachel, I'm going to hand it over to you and you can let us know what some of the the more subtle signs are.
speaker-2 (01:17)
Really good question. The subtle signs with a horse could be tail swishing. They could be they're a little tight and tense in the body. It could be that they are moving quickly. It could be that their energy's high. I mean, as everyone else knows, there could be a lot, a lot of different things that a horse can use to tell us what's going on. Dissecting that isn't always easy. So,
in my past history with working with a horse, if I'm feeling there's something just not quite right, I like to slow down. I like to dissect something into a smaller pieces and and try and figure out where where it might be coming from. And and it is just a big dissection with a with a horse. They don't have a voice of their own. They only have us to try and notice. So
Hopefully we can see the signs. that would be great first off, right? A head toss or tail swish or something once or twice is like, okay, it's life happens, but when it comes up again and again consistently. I think asking for help when you don't know is a is a really good solution to that if you can't figure it out on your own. So where would I go? So maybe a vet, maybe a chiropractor, maybe a body worker.
Maybe there's so many therapies out there today that you could try to see if it's something physical with the horse, then if it's more mental and emotional. Well that's a whole nother direction to look at. It's a vast question that you're asking me. It could go so many different directions. So it's kind of ex it's kind of exciting, but it's also hard to really pull into one.
one piece for me. So looking at those little signs, listening to your horse, is it the environment? What is it? I think if I were to pick one thing, we could go down that rabbit hole. But otherwise that's kind of where I would would leave that as an overview.
speaker-0 (03:18)
that's great. And I I love that we the focus is communication. And then from there, once we realize that our horse is communicating something to us, now we can start to maybe rely on some different opinions and get some outside help to really dial in and see see what else might be going on under the surface. All right, Kirsten.
speaker-1 (03:42)
So the first thing I look at is if the horse is starting to get defensive and we're triggering a stress response in the nervous system, then the behavior is gonna manifest into what are called five universal defensive strategies. And this has zero to do with personality. It's what people and horses adopt when they're in short term survival mode in the nervous system. So we have fight, flight, freeze.
On and shut down. And there's a hierarchy to that. So fight and flight are opposite expressions of the same problem. Fight means the horse is gonna go towards you, pinned ears, aggression, tension, not want to move. Flight is expressed through distraction, anxiety, can't stand still. Opposite expressions, same problem. Freezing is sort of the deer in the headlight, which in the moment there's there's no move.
Right. But then they bounce between fight and flight in more extreme ways as soon as they start moving their feet. And then fawning is what I would call anxious obedience. And unfortunately, we sometimes call that a push button horse. And then shut down. So fawning and freezing are also opposite expressions. And they're a layer deeper where the stress is more intense or more chronic or it's more complicated. So anxious obedience is fawning, which is just
Lacating to stay out of trouble. Freezing is deer in the headlight, ready to explode. Everything's building up internally. And then the defensive strategy of last resort is actually called shutdown. And shutdown is just general lethargy, no opinion whatsoever. And it's the most complicated defensive pattern. And we unfortunately sometimes call those kids horses.
Right? They don't have an opinion about anything and they don't even act like a horse anymore. They don't respond like a horse. So if I see any one of those five expressions and they have a specific direction of movement, a specific type of energy that is just generally not calm, and very specific or I should say types of behaviors associated with each one. So if I see any of those defensive behaviors, the first thing I need to do is turn that around. I go, because now
anything to do with the body or the training or the physical balance of the horse, we're not going to really tuck into it because the body is set up in the mode of defensiveness, not cooperation. Now any one of those defensive strategies can be because of past experiences, because of current situations, not feeling understood, or it can have a physical root cause. So something as simple as
we have two types of lameness according to vets. There's painful lameness, which is what the gr vet grades one through five, and then there is mechanical lameness. So a horse can be dysfunctionally coordinated, making them feel very unstable through the spine and the pelvis where they should be stable, or very uncomfortable because they're compensating in ways that is not a healthy balanced coordination. So it's making them constantly unstable or uncomfortable.
To the point that maybe they don't even feel safe in their own skin. So I go, I'm gonna look at the physical movement and coordination, see if that has something to do with what's going on. But the first order of business is I've got to turn those stress response, that stress response into I've got to shift nervous system dominance to just get in the door. Like I've got to shift that stress response into what's called a relaxation response, which is where the
Parasympathetic nervous system is dominant. That's where I'm going to get calm energy. That's where I'm going to get cooperation. That's where I'm going to get the horse focused on me in a positive way. And then we can tuck into what's going on. Is it painful? Is it just uncomfortable? Is it a instability issue? Is it too much weight on the forehand? Is it simple? Is it complicated? But that's a that's a whole nother thing to unpack.
Once I know I've gotten through this defensive barrier.
speaker-0 (07:57)
There's
lot to unpack there, but really figuring out is your horse exhibiting any one of these defensive nervous system states? Because that if we're seeing anything like that show up, now we know there's something deeper that we need to explore. And depending on the state that they're showing us is going to depend on the direction that we're headed as far as our our exploration. So excellent. Thank you for that. All right. So Lynn, now you.
speaker-3 (08:25)
Well, I tend to really get super literal. And so if I were an amateur rider and maybe I don't have the context that Rachel and and Kirsten have in the moment, right? Maybe I'm just learning about stress signals in horses and I'm not really applying it in the moment. It's just my favorite horse, you know, Misty is suddenly having a problem. What does that mean?
So I would look at for subtle signs, just to literally answer that question, really subtle signs that I think sometimes can be missed unless you have the professional context like Kirsten and Rachel would be the little bit of worry line that can come around the eye. It won't be like an obvious squint like a pirate, but maybe something just looks a little different in the eye, maybe just a little bit less liquid. Not that shut down look yet, not that.
w whites of the eyes showing, but something just doesn't quite look right. And then a lot of times the mouth can very subtly tighten, not the super tight that we've all seen in very, very stressed horses, but where your horse just looks maybe like he's going just a little like that. And then sometimes if you are working, whether you're working on the ground or in the saddle,
There'll be something different in your horse's usual pattern. And I think a lot of riders, I started as an amateur. We tend to assume it's immediately our fault or that we're being wimpy if we don't just push through something. But if we could trust our own instincts and understanding of our horse, so something that is a little slower than usual, you know, like maybe you don't yet have the capacity or context yet to diagnose which limb, but you're like, hey, he feels just a little short strided.
something feels a little slower or he's not and it might ultimately translate into he's not with you, right? But in that moment it feels like he's just a little behind or he's a little ahead, not bolting, not doing anything wild and kind of out there, but just a little bit of a rush, like he's late to catch the school bus. And then when you notice that if you can set aside the immediate assumption that it's your fault.
Because when we assume it's our fault or if we're not doing the right thing, we sometimes then shut off that curious part of our brain. So I read somewhere that it's really hard to be curious and fearful at the same time. So if you're in a situation where maybe you've noticed something's going wrong with your horse, you're not sure if you can go, I wanna be curious about this to help my horse. Sometimes that will allow you to see more. And then you might notice that, your horse's eye is a little duller, the mouse a little tighter.
Or something's a little slower or a little faster. And then you might notice in that moment of the breathing of the horse, which you might not have been as open to. And then you might cast your eye out to the surroundings or what could be causing it. So that would be my first, very literal answer. Again, so many people who follow Paula and follow both of my co-panelists probably really understand the bigger context. But for those riders who might be listening,
who don't yet have it 'cause they haven't watched your presentations yet. I just wanna throw out that more literal answer.
speaker-0 (11:33)
Fantastic. And yeah, I think the idea of increasing our power of observation and then not having this, I think it's so common for us as writers, and I think women in particular to feel like, it's our fault or we did something wrong. And once we're doing that, now we're in a nervous system state that's not allowing the curiosity. And if we're not curious and able to start asking questions and exploring different
ideas around why we're experiencing the behavior in our horse that we're seeing, well then it makes it a lot harder for us to diagnose and to come up with what's actually going on. So thank you for that. And yes, go ahead, Lynn.
speaker-3 (12:15)
quick
comment on that. And if we can kind of sense that in ourselves and get more curious, then maybe we can guide our horses to feel a little less fearful and a little more curious by the questions or the response we give them at that time. So it's maybe a little bit of a way to build empathy, you know, rather than feeling like you have to know all the answers. Like if I can get curious, maybe then I can help my horse feel a little more supported and and look for answers to these very simple questions I'm not trying to ask anyway. Yeah.
speaker-0 (12:42)
Great, so important. Good. So I think we're going to get on to our next question, which is how can you tell the difference between training issues, pain, or overwhelm? And Kirsten, I'm gonna have you start with this one.
speaker-1 (12:58)
Okay. And it it picks up on what I was talking about in my last answer, because the defensive response, which is when the body, any nervous system, this is true for horses or people, that as soon as our perceptions start to track
trigger this stress response. It's dominance of the sympathetic nervous system. You're going to start running stress hormones. It's going to change your physiology. It's going to change your posture. It's going to change your decision making. And then it's going to perpetuate perceptions that are also sort of aimed at short term survival. And so pausing long enough to sort of go, okay, even though I don't see what my horse sees, right? Or
My horse doesn't understand what I see. Perceptions are unique and individual, right? And so how we perceive things is what's going to trigger that response. And that response is going to color everything we do. So how can you tell the difference between training issues, pain issues, or different issues? And I sort of break it into mental, emotional, and physical. So where's the mind? Where's the body? And
I look at the mind going, can I change my focus or change the horse's mental focus? Does that make a difference? Right. I look at the energy. Is it calm? Is it not calm? Can I address that? Can I get that to shift somehow? And if I can get a horse to be calm and focused, or if I can be calm and focused doing whatever I'm doing, then the rest of it is gonna be in that complicated physical category.
And so I might work with my vet, my body worker, my farrier to get input about the body. And I might have to start going out and searching a little bit to go what is good, healthy horse movement look like. Right. And I don't think that that's readily available in our industry. I think there's a lot of opinions, but there's not consistent information for us to assess how our horse is moving and if that's a contributing factor.
So we can easily rule out with vet barrier body workers, whatever modality we want to use or nutrition, saddle fit, bridle fit, all of that we can check and rule out. And if we can't find a solution in there, it could be something as simple as our horse is in a dysfunctional use that's creating wear and tear every time we're riding, and that that's starting to add up.
So we kinda have to go searching for answers and I love the idea of staying curious because it's the problems that push us into for learning more. the problems are actually the training opportunities to go learn more information.
speaker-2 (15:48)
Wanna say Amen to that.
speaker-0 (15:50)
Same here. It's it's those those horses that are the the difficult horses or the ones that that are showing up in a way that we're maybe not wanting them to show up that cause us to dig deeper into ourselves as well as to dig deeper into their well-being. When we learn about our horses and their bodies, it it almost just snowballs and our knowledge through learning about our horse, our knowledge grows about ourselves, which causes more reflection about ourselves.
Which causes us to learn more about our horses. We we get that little nudge that causes us to pursue a little deeper and go a little further. And I think that's the fun part about horses is it's a lesson in life in all different avenues of life. Yes, Kirsten. I
speaker-1 (16:34)
Just
wanted to add to that that I think in the heat of the moment, when we start feeling frustrated or scared or anything like that, part of taking a pause, I'll often remind people, I go, we are supposed to be the higher intelligence. We're the ones who the onus is on us to find the right information, not for the horse to just comply. Like we're supposed to be smarter than horses. We need to utilize that intelligence and go gather more information.
speaker-0 (17:03)
Yes, it is on us, isn't it? And it's can it can be easy to blame it on the horse, but that's not that's not the right answer. Okay, so Lynn.
speaker-3 (17:11)
gonna give a literal real life example so that it was in the moment. So so many times these things first happen in the moment, and then you're not sure what to do. So I hadn't been working with X racehorses for very long. So I'm I'm a rider, but I'm not a trainer. We had a horse come off the track who was known to be mischievous, but only with people who mishandled him was the story. He had very enlarged fet locks but appeared to be sound on them. And
My experience with him was that when I would go to mount him on the mounting block, he would act a little excited, but it was kind of like, Can you take a practical joke? And then once you got on him, off you would go, walk trot. But I'd only done a handful of rides on him. The other bit of context here is that I had recently moved from the East Coast to Texas. So I was riding him, I was get taking him to the mountain block in my backyard because I was so professional at the time. And it was a windy day in October.
And usually what I would do is I would get on the mountain, get him on get on him from the mounting block and then ride down this little path along some wooded area. That would be our first thing. So I take him to the mounting block and he's having a little bit more than usual flamboyance. And I'm like, Well, you're fine, And I get on him and he's very restless. And I'm like, Well, I just need to be, the tough trainer. I need to be more confident. And I'm like, come on, let's go.
And he started to almost rear in place, which was not like him. And so I was urging him forward. And then something in the back of my mind was like, if this is a training issue, he's not responding well and he's being different. And they know it's really windy. It's a little cold. I'm distracted. And I'm like, well, maybe he's sore. Maybe the cold weather is making him sore. And this is also going through my mind, like, why am I even on this horse? And
Why did I move to Texas? all these thoughts are running through my head at the same time. And we were at a stalemate. He really wouldn't move forward, but it didn't seem like pain. And I knew it was important to go forward if it wasn't pain. And he started to do this very melodramatic thing where he he would look off to his right and then he would twist his head up and look up at me. And then he would swing around to the front, his head over to the right, and then go up and look at me.
And it was very strange. And I was like, is he having a seizure? what is going on here? And right by where the path is, there was a brush pile, your classic brush pile. And it was super windy. And then the wind died, but there was still a lot of sound. And I looked over and there was a rattlesnake standing straight up, ready to strike, ten feet away from us. And I was like, Bless this horse. He had every right to buck me off. And I I just I put my hand down and I said,
whatever you think. And he very slowly backed away. He he actually did half circle backups without me I wasn't touching him. I was just like, get us out of here, whatever way you see best. And the part of this that's also interesting is that in Virginia, October is not snake season. We of course don't have rattlesnakes, but it's very it's much colder in Virginia where I was. So I would have never thought to look for a snake. And so that shows you my whole process. Yes, he probably was a little sore. He certainly was quirky and there probably was uneven training.
But in that moment, all of those layers came down and I was able to understand what was going on. So that was one of the biggest lessons I ever learned from a horse. Wow.
speaker-0 (20:39)
What
a cool story.
speaker-3 (20:44)
Irony
is his registered racing name was Tulsa Mambo. So, I mean, you can't get better than that.
speaker-0 (20:50)
very fitting.
Our horses are always talking to us and sometimes the things that they're saying might surprise us. What a good boy. Wow. Okay, so Rachel.
speaker-2 (21:02)
That was a great story, by the way. Wow.
speaker-3 (21:06)
I know that.
speaker-2 (21:08)
Well, I think Kirsten talked really well about the pain side of things. So I think I want to talk a little bit more about the training side of things. And it always comes back for me personally and for the people that I get the pleasure to to work with is that often it's our expectations. It's the things we have in our mind that we're going to do. A really good one is I want to canter.
just picking some random thing out in the air and we go out, I want to go canter today. And maybe your horse isn't great at it yet, but it's a goal of yours. And sometimes our expectations can get us into trouble because we become direct line in. That's my goal. Rather than thinking about where is my horse today and maybe cantering isn't even on the table. Maybe it is, but you know, we have to be open to whatever's going on. So
I might have a goal, even an expectation, but I like to always, I love how Lynn brought this in, stay curious, stay open, and be ready to to move with where my horse is actually at. And maybe it's a windy day. Maybe there's a snake in a pile coming up on me. May you know, maybe there's some other environmental elements that come in that make me say, actually I'm gonna completely let go of my expectations and
And move on a different path. So I have a I have a great story that you might relate to, but it's instead of picking the canter, we're gonna choose one that is a student of mine really, really wanted to stand up on her horse. That was just something she was like, if I could do that, wow, that'd be so amazing. So of course you'd think, All right, so you go out and stand on your horse, right? Just go stand up on their back. And we're all taking a little giggle to ourselves, right? It's not that simple.
Can you get your horse to stand still while you stand next to them on the ground? first of all, you're gonna really break that expectation down into little weenie pieces and build on it. For some people, they might be listening to this and just go, well, that's ridiculous. my horse won't stand still. How would I ever achieve that goal? For other people, they're like, yeah, my horse stands still, fine. Okay, so then build that up. Can I stand up next to them on a mounting block or on a fence or on something tall? So I'm above them.
And now will they stand still and be relaxed? So I'm just building on the expectation every day. I could talk for hours about this. So another little thing that I love in a story is who's seen old Western movies? Right? So the guy comes into town galloping on his horse, right?
speaker-3 (23:49)
Run, run, run, run, try.
speaker-2 (23:50)
He gets in front of the saloon, the bar.
And I've got a minute left to tell my story. They throw the reins over the little kitchen rail there and they go into the saloon to shoot someone or be shot or whatever it is, depending on the movie and where we're at. But that horse, after galloping into town, just puts their head down and stands there completely relaxed and chilled out. So that's always the little story that I like to tell people that that's the horse I want you to see. So even an amateur can
remember the Western movie or go watch one and see that piece and go, wow, those horses really know how to chill out and relax. And so relaxation is my number one thing that I like to talk about. So we've got this picture in our minds now of what really relax looks like. So I've got my horse to do that while I'm next to them. I get my horse to do that while I stand up on something high.
Then I help my horse to be that when I'm sitting on them. Then you could you can see how these layers are just building and building. Then can they be like that? Why my legs are wiggling round and I'm having got some music on and I'm having a little party and jiggling around on my horse and then kneel up on them. And I'm sure you can see the steps just one little piece at a time till I get to the point where not only can I stand on my horse.
But my horse is super relaxed as I do it. And so that's a neat little story that I like to tell. And you can take that obviously into anything that you want to do. Put it down into the minutiae, the little baby steps, and build up on that. And then actually have fun achieving each little piece. Like, wow, my horse stood next to me relaxed today. That was amazing. It's taken me two weeks to get that. You know, if you have that expectation, it's gonna take a while.
Then it's a magic thing. Rather than I'm gonna go out and stand on my horse's back today, that's where we get into trouble with training. And that's where we can not be as curious and not help our horse t to move further forward. So anyhow, I love that little story and I hope it it helps you kinda I don't know, look at tasks that you want to accomplish in an easier way to break it all down into little steps.
speaker-0 (26:09)
Yeah, I think that's that's a great way to look at that's you know, that's one of the the things where we can reflect and say, Well, I can know it's not the training if I'm still seeing these issues coming up and I feel like I've broken things down ever so s you know, small and I know that my horse is pretty relaxed and comfortable with what I'm doing. So now I need to maybe look into some of these these other areas. So excellent. A great
Great breakdown of how to approach our our training with our horses in a way that makes them it makes it easy on them, right? It makes them come up with the right answer in in a very easy, straightforward way. Okay, so then the next question would be, what would we think of when something isn't working? And we we know it's not working, but we're just we're not sure where to start. What would would be some of the first things that you would look at to determine
Why the why behind why it's not working. So I'm going to have, let's see here, Lynn, I think you're up next.
speaker-3 (27:16)
Next, yes. Well, that's a really interesting question because it can be very stressful for a person to realize what usually works isn't working, because we're very habit driven too. And I think the first thing about where to start is to not assume that just because something isn't working, it doesn't mean there's going to be a bad outcome.
It just means that maybe you and your horse are going to discover something together. And while that sounds cheesy, that simple reframe again can get you a little more in the curiosity mode and less in the, my God, my horse hates me and I'm the worst rider who ever lived mindset. And just go, hey, this isn't doing I'm not getting the usual response. It's also maybe I I think a lot about the language I use to speak to myself with. So this isn't working.
A better for me refrain would be this isn't getting the usual result that I expected. What is changed? What else can I experiment with and get into that mindset of I want to experiment a little? Again, staying safe, assuming safety is not at risk. Because in that case, if something isn't working, your horse is bucking convulsively, it might be time to stop the ride, for example. But let's assume we're not in that zone. Let's just assume we're in a zone where maybe you've asked your horse to canter.
They're rushing at the trot. You're feeling like the way I usually ask for the canter isn't what's going on. And I think I would go back to the the advice that both Kirsten and Rachel have mentioned several times, which is slow down. When you rush, if something isn't going as expected, you're only going to get to the wrong place faster. So first and foremost, if it's safe, slow it down a little bit, including your mind and your brain, and get to
Something right away, I in my opinion, that you and your horse do well together all the time. It's a reset. So you can go, this isn't working. I'm gonna ask you to slow back down to the trot. We're gonna then go to the walk and maybe we're gonna practice leg yields, or maybe we're going to do a little bit of, a a serpentine pattern, and then we're gonna go, we're gonna flow into the next thing, and then maybe I'll try the other lead. They think of it more as a dynamic.
figure skating routine rather than this isn't working, we have to keep trying over and over again to get it to work. At the very least it'll give you more information, right? maybe it is pain. Maybe there is a snake. Maybe, maybe you're a little off, maybe you're not realizing, but maybe you you worked out too hard at the gym that day and your left glute is just not is not there anymore for the horse. And just rather than this win or lose, work or not work, just go, what can I do?
To change something about how I'm asking and also flow it into something else so we don't get into the desk barrel of you better do what you usually do when I ask you to do it this way. And that allows you to relax a little bit and it also takes that tension from the horse a little bit too. So I have very simple patterns in my mind that I try to go to regularly that
will allow me to gracefully exit a situation without making the horse feel like they've been successful in avoiding a request, just I am now changing the request so skillfully that we're now doing something else and then we're gonna readdress it. That would be my that would be my first go to response.
speaker-0 (30:47)
Great. So a a change of topic and do some more research.
speaker-3 (30:52)
Yes. Yes.
speaker-0 (30:54)
Excellent. So when something isn't working, what are some of the first things that you look at?
speaker-2 (31:00)
Great. When something isn't working, I'm just adding on to Lynn, you go back back to basics. Absolutely. And maybe leave alone the thing. So let's pretend it was the canter and finish on a good note. Because sometimes tomorrow is a new day and a new dawn. And they're just we all have those days, no matter how good you are, everyone has those days where your horse goes, Great, great, great, great, great, and then not so great. Or
doesn't get something or something happens. And so being able to finish on a good note, and I wanna just expound on that just a little bit. So that doesn't mean I was trying to canter, it didn't go well. So I've got to keep going till I can finish the canter well. And that's my good note. No, no, no, no. You do not have to finish the canter on a good note. You have to finish with your relationship burst. So whether that is again to Lynn's just going down and just doing some
some lateral maneuv movements or something at the walk. Maybe you come come back to home and stand by the mounting block until you both can breathe again. Because you got a little tight, both of you and a little worried with whatever it was you were doing. But making sure you finish on a good note that you both love each other when you're putting away in the field and give a big pat and a rub and some breathing time and some chill time. And then tomorrow's a new day. And then yeah.
Then go study learn. I love the quote. Do you're thinking at night and you're feeling during the day. You went and felt it didn't go so well. Go home, read some books, call for help. There's always, there's always something. There's AI today. Go look something up online. In the university of YouTube. There's so many things out there if you get stuck with something. So that would be my my parting words. Finish on a good note.
speaker-0 (32:48)
Great. Yes. And it and I think our horses horses, when we do that consistently, are so much more forgiving of mistakes because they know that, you know, ninety nine percent of the time they feel like a winner coming out of any any interaction with us. And so then when they come to us the next time, they're they're looking at us like, Hey, we're both winners, right? And yeah, yeah. Yeah. Makes makes us both feel good.
speaker-2 (33:16)
Yes. There's
speaker-3 (33:17)
It's
great old there's a great old quote. I don't know if it's Tom Dorrit or Ray Hunt, but it it's something along the lines of it doesn't matter how you feel about your horse or even how your horse feels about you, but it's how does your horse feel about himself when he's with you that is such the big marker. And I love that's one of my favorite things, just what you were saying right there, Paula and Rachel. Yeah.
speaker-2 (33:37)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (33:38)
Yeah.
Okay, Kirsten.
speaker-1 (33:40)
think
that's at the heart of all the training I do as a rehab trainer was the driving question was why. And I find through experience and working in rehab that when horses can do what we're asking them to do, they do it. They don't want trouble, but one of you know, the deep underlying issues from the horse's perspective is do they feel safe? Do they feel stable? And do they feel comfortable doing?
doing what we're asking them to do. And if the answer to that is no, or we don't even really understand the depth of that question, then we're gonna get defensiveness and resistance or problems or lameness or health issues as a result of trying to impose ourselves and get the horse to do what we want. And I find no matter the age, the breed, the problem, all horses share the same anatomy. All horsesh and people share
the same nervous system. So when I'm looking at behavior issues, which is really just the horse communicating to us that there is a problem, what we call a behavioral issue is just horses don't have words, they have actions. And when the actions aren't what we like, they're trying to tell us there's a problem. And starting to understand what it really means, like because all horses share the same anatomy, the ideal coordination of that anatomy is really the same.
Horse to horse to horse. So horse balance and healthy movement is really the same. What confirmation is, is the body the way it is, unchangeable. But coordination is how that body is used in motion. And things like just pushing our horses to go faster with our legs instead of looking at why is my horse resisting? Going for why he's a horse. He's built to move. Why doesn't he want to move? That's a really big problem.
Right. And we take it for granted, we call them lazy, where we, make it a personality flaw. But horses that resist going forward are typically telling us, I'm uncomfortable going forward. Right. So sorting out how or why that horse is uncomfortable going forward. Once the horse is comfortable, they go forward.
it's not something you have to push them or leverage them into. And I find a lot of horses that can't slow down, the ones that are too fast, have typically more the problem of being unstable, unstable through their spine and pelvis, unstable hypermobile horses, right? And so if we solve that problem of stability during motion, they slow down, they calm down, they focus. And so looking at through the horse's eyes, do you feel unsafe?
Do you feel unstable? Do you feel uncomfortable? Or in rehab training, sometimes it's all three. And even when I'm rehabbing a lame horse with serious pathology, I go, pain is not pathology. Pain comes before the pathology often. So a horse can be very uncomfortable before we see any pathology manifest on an X-ray, or even a gradable painful lameness.
And so horses that are either resisting slowing down, resisting going forward energetically, unequal to the left or the right, the saddle slipping to one side, they fall in turning left and they bow out turning right, or they can't get a right lead or they can't get a left lead, all of those are indicative of coordination issues, dysfunctional coordination, which
Maybe there's a pain issue, maybe there's pathology, maybe confirmation makes it easier or harder. But coordinate we can all learn to ride a bike, no matter what our confirmation is. Riding a bike is an event of coordination that we all learn. And so all horses learn can learn to improve their coordination in order to feel more comfortable, more stable, or safer in their own skin. And as soon as I fulfill those needs for a horse.
They willingly cooperate. They love the work. They want to work with you. They don't want trouble. And it's because we've given them something that's important to them. Right. And sometimes we have to pause and go, Am I putting my agenda over my horse's needs? And as long as you're ignoring those three fundamental needs that horses have, you're going to have trouble. Or you're going to have
big vet bills. And that's the price we pay if we don't consider from our horse's perspective how they're perceiving what we're asking for. Or it never occurs to us, because they're such huge animals, that nobody taught them how to carry a rider comfortably, right? We just get on and we get walk trock canner in 30 days and we're expecting the horse to figure out how to ride the bicycle by just throwing them into it. And not all horses learn that.
And so, really understanding what a healthy coordination is is a huge solution to so many of our problems.
speaker-0 (38:51)
So good. And now we're going to finish with closing comments from each of you. And I think I'm going to have Lynn, you're going to start us off with those.
speaker-3 (39:04)
All right. Well, I would just say that for me, again, as much as the rider is able to, put yourself a little bit in the horse's place and try to be a little bit more supportive by being supportive of yourself first. Again, a lot of our physical tension, our breathing issues comes from when we assume it has to be a certain way or whatever's happening must be bad because we don't quite understand it.
And horses are like that too sometimes when we're showing them new things. They might assume it's gonna be bad or scary because they don't have the context. So treat yourself as well as you would treat your horse if you can. be kind to yourself. You're trying to get a little bit into a curious CSI mindset rather than being a perfect diagnostician or a perfect rider. So give yourself that freedom to reframe a little bit. this is not going wrong. It's just something is different.
I'm curious about what the outcome will be if I change something or if I slow down and I try to see a different kind of pattern. I'm very big into pattern recognition and you can have really good pattern recognition skills, even if you haven't yet studied to the degree that let's say Kirsten and Rachel have of the whole body, of the whole nervous system. Some people I think get intimidated, like, I have to know all of this. It's like, no, you can improve your pattern recognition skills if you know your horse well.
And you could say, hey, I'm noticing something's off. Let me experiment and see what happens if I do this. And then again, once you're in that curious mindset, that allows you to then help guide your horse that way. If your horse is feeling mentally unbalanced, let's say, which for a horse will also mean physically unbalanced, right? Because mental and physical is one with the horse. Anything that you can do to offer a little bit of a puzzle to the horse, hey, this is a different kind of question. I just want you to get into the mode where you're thinking.
I'm going to reward you for thinking through an answer. It's not a black and white yes-no answer. That helps the horse get a little more curious and it breaks that pattern between you. And then in many ways, you can then come together as a team. Like several people have said here, these these moments that seem wrong or these situations where maybe the horse is a little tight or uncomfortable, they can be true gifts where you can learn how to help each other through them in ways that are very practical and in the moment.
And then you can go home, as you were saying, Rachel, and study at night, use your brain at night to get the context, to study the nervous system, to study the muscoskeletal system, to understand coordination versus pure movement and then bring it in. And it's okay to have fun when something's not going exactly right too. Like again, it doesn't necessarily mean unsafe if it's not exactly what you thought it would be. So if you can allow yourself again, as long as it is, isn't unsafe.
To be a little bit more open and say, hey, if I were a kid, I would think this was cool or weird. I wouldn't think it was the end of the world. And that those little mindset things really help. And then the horse will respond to that change in us. Our subtle breathing, the way that we're carrying ourselves in the saddle comes from our brain too. We just aren't as integrated sometimes as the horse is. So that would be my closing comment on that.
speaker-0 (42:19)
Thank you. Rachel.
speaker-2 (42:21)
Wow. I think that if you've listened to this, you've learned a lot of things to think about. So I would like to say breathe and have fun and don't get too in your head. Because sometimes we can think, What if it is pain? What if it is this? And what if it is that? And although that's really good to be curious, it's really good to be asking those questions. I like what you're saying, Lynn. You do need to actually have some fun. You need to
Just be in the moment with your horse. And then if it is something that's training or pain or something, then okay, let's look at that separately. But don't get too bogged down. Have some fun. Enjoy your time with your horse. obviously we're horse girls, that's what we love is hanging out with them, even with breathing with them on the ground. You don't have to ride, whatever it is. Just I hope you get to enjoy your horse more.
speaker-0 (43:14)
Yay. Yeah. I think we all agree wholeheartedly with that. And Kirsten, you're going to finish us flip here.
speaker-1 (43:21)
Hey, this was a great conversation and saying similar things in different ways. It was really a pleasure with you guys. And I think while bodies are complicated, takes some it takes some learning to really understand either the human body or the horse's body. But the easy part is just using our awareness. I go, that is actually the ticket.
I think Lynn keeps saying curiosity, I use the word awareness and pausing long enough. And I go, if you keep it really simple, I go, the human has to assess, do I feel unsafe, unstable, or uncomfortable in this situation? Because our energy is always broadcasted to the horse. They can't miss it, right? All of our nonverbal communication. And even if we're not quite right, I think admitting that to our horse.
Sometimes, just eases the situation while we pause and go, I need a minute. I'm way too wound up. Right. Or if we're okay, posing like to just think, could I look through my horse's eyes? Could I read the body language, the energy, the the behavior, rather than thinking the behavior is good or bad, it's what I want, it's what I don't want. What is my horse trying to communicate to me?
By repeating this behavior. And our awareness, just opening our curiosity or awareness when we pause, a lot of times we don't have to know all the complicated stuff to recognize simple communication nonverbally. And at least that we go, Okay, I'm gonna quit pushing my horse to do this because something's not working. Let me back up. And basically my path has been.
one challenging horse after another, which kept taking me down the road of learning more and learning more. And those horses were such gifts. and like you said at the very beginning of this, it changes who we are. Like that's how we become horse people, whether we're a novice or professional. And, you know, I think back to when I first started riding and knew nothing and was getting bucked off regularly. It's like I didn't know what to do, but I knew
My horse wasn't a bad horse. I knew I didn't have the right answers and that I didn't have the understanding to help that horse at the time. And so then what was I gonna do? Right. I had lots of options, but instead of just blaming the horse or subjecting the horse to, you know, somebody who would who would make him anxiously obedient or shut down, I was like, he's a good horse. Like I knew that in my guts, even though I didn't have the information I now have.
And that's how we go down the journey of learning horse by horse. Whether we only ever own one horse, I go, that's still a lifetime of learning, just to try to understand our one horse. And we don't have to go down the professional track. We just have to be honest, I guess, about through our awareness. We kinda know what the horse is maybe trying to tell us, at least that we know the difference between this is good and this sucks. Like let's start there.
So I hope this I hope all three of us have, given people lots to think about because we can get unstuck with the horse we have right now. And I think some I was told as a sixteen year old rider, You're a very good rider, dear. You just need a better horse. And I still hear that. And that nothing pisses me off more. Like that.
speaker-0 (47:03)
I had I had the same experience as a 4-Her and I was told the same thing, you know, get yourself a better horse. I loved my horse, but that was I
speaker-1 (47:13)
I loved my horse too.
speaker-0 (47:15)
it didn't like I didn't care about the ribbon. It was a judge at a show, you know. It was I loved my horse and that's all I cared about.
And you touched on gifts and our horses being gifts and we are all gifts to our horses when we are showing up and advocating for them. And I'd like to thank you all for being here because you are all gifts to the horse world and to helping our community discover what works best for themselves and their horse because we're all different.
speaker-3 (47:49)
Thank you for giving us this opportunity, Paula, and then for all you do with the fair and really allowing so many people to discover different types of teachers. teachers are so different in how they express things and some students really need to hear it in different ways. So you really have done so much for the horse world for horses, for students and for teachers. So thank you, Paula, for this opportunity. Well you're
speaker-0 (48:13)
Welcome
and thank you for this.
speaker-1 (48:15)
Thank you very much.
speaker-2 (48:16)
Thank you, Paula, sincerely.
