Paula (00:00)
welcome, everybody. I am Paula Curtis from the Art of the Horsemen online horse fair.
And I'm so excited because today I'm joined by Kirsten Nelson, Julie Robbins, and David Lichman, who's, we were just talking about how he's been a very helpful partner in crime to have solve some of our tech things and be notified of them. And so we are live. I apologize for the delay, but I'm very excited because today I think we've got a topic that really a lot of
a lot of horse people are struggling with. And it's the whole idea of trying to pick and find the techniques and the tools and lessons to use with our horse on any given day. And sometimes it can feel overwhelming and hard to sort through. And there's a lot of information out there on the internet and it
It can be a struggle for some to figure out what should they be focusing on and what should they be working on. And in our Art of the Horseman online horse fair, we're giving you a lot of different perspectives and ideas and we're trying to create an education that's well-rounded. Because if we have a well-rounded education and then we see a problem, we can start to come at it.
and then sift through what's working here today and what's not. And I really value having multiple perspectives. And that's what we've got here today is we've got multiple perspectives. Everybody's coming at these questions that we're going to go through, which our community, thank you community for voting on what they would like to hear from our presenters. And so our community weighed in.
And we've got three questions. Each of the presenters is going to have around three minutes up to like five minutes. We've got some wiggle room to go with the question and give us a feel for how they think that they would go and solve that particular question or that particular problem. So what I'm going to do is I've got my phone and I've got a timer on my phone because it's
It's I know, sorry guys. So I've got a timer on my phone and what I'm going to do is I am going to raise my hand when we are at the three minute mark and then you've got another minute or two to kind of wrap things up and give your final perspective on that question. So let me get my timer here. Perfect.
Because we've got three questions and we've got three presenters, I'm going to go ahead and start at the top right. So Kirsten, you're going to be the first one to go. And
Kirsten (02:51)
on the hot seat,
Paula (02:52)
each of you is going to answer the same question. So we're just going to kind of, it's a round table. So we'll switch the order as we're doing these. And the first question is when someone's trying to decide what's right for their horse,
What do you think they need to look at first?
start.
Kirsten (03:08)
That's a pretty broad question, right? So, the first thing that I think is really important is basically the use of the nervous system, which is unpredictable, right? So all horses, all people share the same nervous system and as complicated as it is, the nervous system's job is to spit out either a stress response or a relaxation response.
to any given stimulus, whatever that stimulus is. And that response is based entirely on the individual's perceptions, right? So roller coasters can trigger a relaxation response or a stress response, depends on the person perceiving it. So horses are that way too. So the first thing I want to know is if my horse is in a stress response, that's going to do a couple of things.
It's going to put it's tied to short-term survival. So I'm going to get defensive behavior. My horse is going to be running stress hormones. It's going to affect the health and it's going to affect the posture and movement. So to me, the first criteria of whether something is working or not working is, is my horse thoughtful and calm and still making a bazillion mistakes that has nothing to do with learning.
Right? Or is my horse becoming more defensive, has an energy that's anything but calm. So it could be fight or flight. It could be tension and aggression, snarkiness, pushiness, or it could be anxiety, distraction, getting away, hard to catch, all of that. Could go either way. But if I'm getting a sort of defensive type of behavior, energy that is not calm,
a focus that is not sort of soft and aimed at what we're doing, at me or at what we're doing, then I don't consider the learning, whatever training skill I'm trying to teach, is really gonna stick, right? And we think that we have to tire horses out that are in stress, or we think we have to work through stress in order to get calmness. But what I find is,
how each individual is going to have a threshold where not only are you not going to learn something new, you're going to step into a safety issue for you or your horse. So as soon as I see a horse starting to lose calm energy, start to become fight or flight, anxious, tense, defensive in some way, shutting down, placating, freezing,
There's five different universal strategies, right? To defend the self. But essentially in a stress response, the sympathetic nervous system is dominant. That's going to affect even further how we perceive anything, how we cope with anything and whether or not we're going to retain any training or learning. So I got the signal. I will wrap it up. But a relaxation response to me is.
telling me how to introduce anything new, telling me how to go through training. I can't push a horse into a stress response and get a long-term benefit. And in doing rehab work, even changing coordination and movement requires conscious thought on the part of the horse. So that relaxation response is the first thing that is telling me, even if it's a little awkward and not nice, it's working.
What we're doing is working and the horse will get better at it over time because the horse is dominant in the parasympathetic nervous system and is integrating and learning from every mistake.
Paula (06:42)
All right. Thank you, Kirsten. That was great. And I think that's such an important factor for people to be focusing on in their training. Because if we don't have a horse that's available in their nervous system to be receiving whatever it is we're asking them to do, really, we're not going to be getting anywhere. So it all comes back to that.
Kirsten (07:03)
I feel like you spin your wheels. Yeah.
Paula (07:06)
Yeah, yeah, excellent. Okay, so now I'm going to go down. So Julie, you are next.
Julie (07:12)
I think what Kristen said is great. I do think that's really important. I would probably come back just a little bit on a bigger scale. For me, when I'm working with horses and teaching others, I go to what I call a PME fitness. And for me, this stands for physical, mental, and emotional fitness. And if a horse, if I have a problem with a horse or an extreme reaction with a horse, building again, Kristen, what you said is great. This becomes
a little more simplistic, if you will, that I'm always looking for what physically might be wrong with the horse, including parasympathetic system, including physical attributes. Is there anything going on in the body? Just, I would say I'm again, kind of doing a broader sweep, but very quickly, if everything pans out with the horse and physically checks out, and I would say oftentimes that goes beyond veterinarian care or farrier care,
I do think we now are at a live at a time where we're digging into some deeper research about what we can learn from the horse physically. Secondly, the next two areas that I would look into are the mental and the emotional. And I feel a lot of times people are getting horses physically fit or they're tuned into the physical tasks that they want, but I don't think they break it down on the mental side and the emotional side. And for me, those are two very different things.
Mentally, how can a horse think through things? Do they understand what we're asking? Is it a right eye or left eye issue? Meaning, is a side on one side or side on the other, or is it in the front, in the back, above, below? Start thinking in the mental capacity. How does it feel to be a horse from that mental perspective? And thirdly, it would be emotional. So for me, those three things are very, very separate. Emotional is more, how does the horse feel about it? And I'm sure scientifically,
Sorry, Kirsten, I mentioned your name wrong before, but I really think that on the emotional side, that is a whole component that really has not been regarded. And that is, how does the horse feel about that? And emotional regulation in horses isn't something that's talked about very much, but I believe it is something that's very, very important. There also is, I believe, a spiritual side of horses, so that takes it to P.E.
PMS with an S for spiritual. That is not my particular strength, but I do definitely believe in the spiritual side of horses from all of my over 30 years of working with children and adults with disabilities, veterans, first responders, and those that have been with horses on trauma responses. Horses have this uncanny effect to affect us spiritually as well. So overall for me, it is just trying to drop it into sort of which bucket.
would require my first focus. Is it a physical issue? Is it a mental issue? Is it an emotional issue? That's the three main areas that I would talk about. And then for me, just, go back to just some of the simplistics of what does it feel like to be a horse? What really gives the horse a sense of safety? And that does boil down to, can he move his feet? Does he feel free to move his feet? That to me is the outward physical, the physical side.
assuming that everything is well with the horse. think the number one thing for our horses is I think horses can be in a lot more pain than we ever really know. And with the studies that are coming out, we're learning more about that. So physical for me is always first. I want to check. And even if I've checked with a couple of vets, if it's that gut instinct in me that just says, hmm, something's not right, I want to follow that up. Continuing to ask questions of trusted and respected professionals.
Paula (10:48)
Excellent, thank you for that. We have some sound issues on Facebook and I am having, I'm troubleshooting on the backside here. So essentially though, what I heard is we really need to be focusing on the whole horse. And you said it's going to be our physical, mental and emotional and really making sure before we move forward at any time that they are good and solid and sound physically so that that is not.
creating those downstream issues where we might start seeing the mental and emotional effects of them being uncomfortable. So excellent. Thank you. Thank you for that, Julie. And David, you are up next. So I'll let you get started.
David (11:31)
Yeah, what they said.
Paula (11:32)
That's great.
David (11:33)
It didn't leave much, no stones unturned there. I will point out that as many years as I've been doing this, I had some long conversations with Mustang Maddie and she's getting deep into the nervous system and ways to deal with that. And I find just as a pointer, one of the things that seems to be getting ignored, and I was not really paying that much attention to it is.
how much they're blinking their eyes or not blinking their eyes as a signal that there is some kind of tension or freezing moment for the horse. I we all know pinning the ears and swishing the tail and, you know, lots of signals from the horses, but that one in particular seemed to you know, slipped by me. So it was nice to, of course, now I can't stop looking at their eyes, seeing if they're blinking. I will also add that
I really paid attention to the blows because I had occasion to work with some people in Vienna who doing, they did some studies at the university and they're also doing their own kind of empirical studies on the exhale sounds that horses make. And they've gotten so far as to make sonograms of the exhale sounds and identify.
the shape of the sound and what it means. They've identified 15 different exhale sounds, are 10 of them, you would say would be on a comforting scale and five of them on a discomfort scale. you know, the big ones, a big giant exhale with extremely positive, but the most
perceived as negative, you know, that thing. And then there's a range in between. I, you know, when I first worked with them, they've been doing this for years and years and they use the horses breathing sounds to speak for the children that are working with them that are nonverbal. So they have taken it to another level. And, and I said, well, give me, can you give me a, you know, a glossary of these terms? And they said, no, just start paying attention. So
At that point, again, I can't stop hearing the horses blowing. If I'm in a class and there's a horse outside the arena, I hear that one. I hear it all the time. I'm very sensitive to it now. And I tell the students that if they're experiencing a relaxation or a positive exhale sound, that they should pay for it. They should reinforce it.
there's a small amount of evidence that the horses can learn to like make those sounds to get reinforced. But I think it's, it's, not looking for that. We're looking for the ones that they, that they, it comes automatically to them. They make those sounds not because they're trying to make that sound, because that's what comes out because of the emotion behind it. So, I'd say, you know, if you're looking to see if you're getting, you know, the question was, are you, you know, how do I know if something is right for the horse? If you're getting the, the, the staring eye,
with the non-blinking. And if you're getting the breathing sounds that are not the relaxing ones, then you need to maybe shift gears and find a different approach. But if you're getting those kind of go signals, then that'd be one way to look at how to, a more practical way of how to look at, is this the right thing for my horse? All this stuff you guys said, you know, it.
This fits exactly with that. But just giving maybe some individual tips. I also look to see, does the horse show up? Because we do most things at Liberty, so if the horse is not showing up or not hanging around, that's a good sign that you're not doing something in a way that's meaningful to the horse. I wasn't paying attention. Did you raise your hand?
Paula (14:58)
I did.
David (14:58)
Now you're off.
Paula (14:59)
No, I'm off. No, I'm on. Yes, I did. And that's great, David. I think that's so important because we must be in a conversation with our horses. And conversations, they go two ways. And if we're not paying attention to how the horse communicates through eyes, breathing, their body language, all of these things, it makes it very difficult for us to adjust our approach in
regarding what they're needing. And all of the things that Kirsten and Julie talked about show up in that body language. So that's so essential. So what a great answer there.
David (15:38)
I would also add that communication can be taught as well. Again, refer to must. She goes by Madison now. She's trying to lose the cowgirl image, I think. But she teaches it with something called a start signal so that when they say the animal shows up, the animal not only shows up, but also gives you permission to do whatever it is you're about to do by giving you a trained start signal.
for example, touching a cone or standing on a platform, something that the horse can physically do to show you, I'm ready to do more. It makes it easy for humans to see that the horse is ready and showed up and not troubled by it.
Paula (16:15)
Excellent. Yeah, I think that's a great tip for people. All right, so we're going to get into our next question. And that next question is going to be, Julie, you get to start. And it's, if somebody feels paralyzed by too many options, what is one helpful next step?
Julie (16:33)
That's always a good question, isn't it? You know, for people what I really find when you find that paralysis, usually to me, it's a sign that you've run out of ideas, you've run out of education, or you've taken in too many things at one time and everything is getting confusing. So I think, you know, number one sometimes for me is just to take a step back with my horse, for example,
if the situation is with one horse or if it's with a client that I'm coaching or teaching, know, sometimes I say, just slow down. You know, not everything has to be done right away when it comes to training or moving forward or mastering a skill. Sometimes the best thing you can do is back up and just go back to some undemanding time with your horse. Give yourself a break from all, know, whether you're learning online or learning with different professionals.
I always tend to go back to my horse and spend a little time in reflection. And for me, I always go back to the way of the horse. Does it align for me with how horses are in nature? That has really been over the years and years that I've been working with horses. That's been the one thing that's always kept me grounded. know, horses, number one, are social animals. They live in hierarchical environments and there's a lot more complexity to it.
But when it boils down to it, what really our horses want and need from us is us to be present. And I think that gets really hard. I mean, we can put in ear pods now, listen to a podcast while we're riding and carry on a conversation and probably take a lesson all at the same time. And I think, you know, in the world of horses, they're present. They are doing exactly what they're doing at that moment. Secondarily, you know, kind of look at progression.
for yourself, stop and look back. How far have you come? You know, take a minute and maybe do a quick outline of, know, here are the things that I've tried. Here's what's working for me now. Here are some potential resources. It really does boil down to finding, feel, resonating almost one person at a time as you're moving forward with different modalities and trainers.
I know for me, often say, know, like David was mentioning earlier about the osteopath conference. And I'm like, my gosh, what am I missing? I want to learn that. My farrier was just in town and he offered to do a hoof dissection. my gosh, I want to learn everything about the hoof. And then the veterinarian clinic was offering a long speech on Cushing's disease. And of course I wanted to learn that. And then, you know, my favorite Liberty trainer happened to be doing a webinar and I wanted to jump on that. So.
Sometimes I just have to stop, take a breath and understand like what is my number one priority right now with this horse, with myself, where we're at and then what's my number two? Then I kind of go, okay, well let's pull back even further and say what's my long-term goal and then what's the next step I could take to get there. But I also think sometimes we just gotta stop and enjoy the ride. I think it's easy to get on the learning train and feel like you're missing things out.
missing out on things and sometimes just go back to the barn in the evening or my horses don't live in a barn. just wander out to the field just take some deep breaths and spend time with my horses to kind of get a reset.
Paula (19:49)
I think that's so important because there is so much overwhelm in many people out there and there's so many tools and so much information. So that idea of just dialing in on one thing and just sit on it and, just like go deep in it and relax a bit and don't feel like you have to do all the things and get, all the goals done with your horse. So what a
What a good message because I think that speaks to a lot of people and what they're feeling. So next, David, let's hear what you have to say on that.
David (20:23)
paralysis,
Yeah, I'm going to go a little more specific in terms of places where people often get paralyzed. And the most common place is when do I ask for more and when do I back off? And they get stuck there. So for me, it happens all the time. And it is the most difficult question to answer.
And we have a tendency as humans to be on one side or the other, like to always back off and say, you know, maybe I shouldn't push or to be the other kind that says, you know, let's push through this and trying to find that line that's right for the horse. It's different on each day for each horse. And I had I had a very fun training partner here for two years from Sweden and
We kind of developed a kind of, you know, almost nonverbal communication about, you know, I'd be doing something and I'd be thinking, I wonder if she'd just ask for one more time or if she'd just ask for, you know, a little improvement here or there. And I'd look over at her and she'd be going, I don't think so. And so I would listen, right? And then she would be doing something and she'd be stopping and she'd look over at me and I'd, you know, give her the, you know, give it one more.
So we balance each other. That's really helpful to have someone else sitting there looking, you know, to help help you. I remember Pat probably told me once that, you know, he was sitting on the fence watching me and he was telling me, you know, I said something like, I'm not sure your horse knows what you're asking because I can't tell what you're asking. So I'm sure he's having trouble too. So, but his advice was to take that third person perspective.
Imagine you're sitting on the fence watching yourself and what do you see and that gives you a chance to observe it from the less personal Space so even if you don't have a partner you can do it for yourself by imagining your own defense And I remember Mike Farney you guys maybe remember Mike Farney Kirsten
Paula (22:10)
in
David (22:10)
Yeah, he was a Olympic ski champion and His coach used to tell him before these runs you can't remember what he was doing giant solemn or downhill or something. He said
He said, you're going to visualize the course before you, you know, you're going to have it memorized and visualize it before you go down. said, but I want you to visualize it from two perspectives. The first perspective is what does it look like as I'm doing it? And the other is the giant overhead perspective. What do you look like going down? And that's, that's, think it's super valuable when you're stuck to, if you don't have someone to help you, which is probably the best way is to try to put yourself on that, on the fence position and see if you can observe yourself.
And then the second part of that question is, you, you know, there was a saying going around probably, which I didn't like so much, which was just do something. So, you know, you're not paralyzed and you've got a 50, 50 chance of being right. Right. And so I, tend to think that if you go with your gut, you're going to be more like 80%. If you go with your gut, what you think is, feel is going on. You're probably going to be 80 % of the time we're going to be right.
But you can learn from your mistakes. If 80 % of the time you try it and you're wrong, you need to shift your percentage down as to how much confidence you have, whether to go forward or whether to back off a little bit.
Paula (23:25)
Yeah, excellent. And I think that's such an interesting perspective of taking that bird's eye view and watching it from through a different lens. Because then we can instead of being attached emotionally to what's going on, we can look at it and maybe see it from our perspective, their horses perspective, an outsider's perspective. And then from there, we can make an educated decision as to maybe what our next best step is. So
Yeah, so cool. Very, very interesting on that, David. Thank you. All right, cursed it.
Kirsten (23:59)
Can you repeat the question one more time just to make sure I'm and I like my head has been everywhere listening to you guys and I loved those answers.
Paula (24:07)
So definitely, if somebody feels parallel.
Kirsten (24:10)
Just repeat it for me quickly.
David (24:11)
She just got quiet.
Kirsten (24:13)
Yep. Okay. Okay.
Yes, now I can hear you. This is what lives are all about.
Paula (24:19)
So if somebody feels paralyzed by too many options, what would be their way to find the most helpful one next step?
So like, what would be that next step?
Kirsten (24:29)
I love the idea of just pausing. I think like Julie said, I call it a pause for as long as needed. And in that pause, I go into feelings because how the horse feels, how we feel is the difference between really getting stuck, getting frustrated and shutting down learning or going into battle with our horses.
versus learning and enjoying the process no matter what we're learning or where we are. So, and timing are sort of balanced. Feel and timing are the essence of horsemanship. And I don't think feel is talked about enough. Like we think of feel as what we're receiving in our skin, but I go feelings are also what we feel. So whether we're gathering information,
through our senses and feeling kinesthetically or even visually, that's triggering our, you know, we're processing that internally. And so what we feel has a lot to do with what the next step is for getting unstuck. So I look at what would be the root cause if I'm stuck, I'm obviously not feeling good. So I'm not in my happy relaxation response. So the root cause of that.
Essentially for horses or people, it's kind of the same. Either we don't feel safe or we don't feel stable or we don't feel comfortable. And understanding horse balance and horse coordination, like Julie said, you can't really separate the mental, emotional from the physical. And the deep bonding and connection that comes with horses that we might even call the spiritual part of it is from understanding the other. Right? So whether the horse is
hitting a threshold or we're hitting a threshold, that's where we get stuck or feel struggle or things aren't working. If we pause in that moment and sort of look and go, well, does my horse feel safe, essentially or unsafe? Do I feel safe or unsafe? That's going to make the difference into which nervous system you're now operating out of. Safety is a big deal. And if the answer is no,
The first thing I would say is what could I adjust so that my horse feels safer or that I feel safer? And this blows back in the face of take your horse to with that scary thing and make them look at it until they relax. go, I might do the opposite and remove that stress trigger or remove myself from the stress trigger until I feel safe or until the horse feels safe.
And then everybody can breathe. Everybody can relax. Everybody can start to consciously process thoughts. Now that can also be, if I feel internally unstable, if I'm a novice rider or I have a tricky horse to ride and I'm getting unstable, I'm still going to have a stress response trying not to fall off, right? Or trying to just deal with a horse that's bucking, rearing, or bolting. And then comfort.
is like a horse feeling uncomfortable could be the reason we feel stuck. Because if we don't understand what it means for a horse to operate in a comfortable coordination, a physical use of the body that's being the body's balanced in the way it was intended to be used, then that discomfort, which lives between pain and ill health, right, and behavior.
And I go, behavior is the only way horses have to communicate with us that something's not working for them. So all behavior is neutral. It's just a communication tool that horses have through behavior to tell us, I feel unsafe. I feel unstable. I feel uncomfortable. And getting unstuck in training has everything to do with meeting those three primary needs for the horse, but also for us.
Right? So if we feel unsafe, unstable, or uncomfortable doing what we're doing, then we're going to have problems. And as soon as we rearrange our training or change our tactics, we have to pause long enough to maybe try several different options. But as soon as we're both feeling safe, stable, and comfortable again, things are working. And I could lose one or two or all three of those feelings.
But I go, the meter lives right inside of us. And with horses, if we miss the early warning signs, they typically have a way of making it much more obvious, and we call those behavior problems. I go, but they're just trying to tell us they either feel unsafe, unstable, or uncomfortable. Not necessarily pain or ill health, just dysfunctional coordination.
that makes it harder for them to do their job.
Paula (29:11)
Yeah, that's a great message. again, it's going back to that whole idea of taking that pause when you're feeling stuck and seeing it from this different perspective, right? And you're talking directly into feel, but really, it's that idea of what is going on underneath.
it all.
Kirsten (29:35)
INSIGHT
Paula (29:36)
Yeah, inside. so feel, think, sometimes can be elusive for people, but it's, are you safe? Are you stable? And are you, what was, I'm sorry, the third one, I'm
Kirsten (29:47)
Comfortable.
Paula (29:48)
comfortable. Yeah. Comfortable. Yeah. So that's, that's a great way for people to think about it and look into it. So now,
David (29:56)
Before you get to the next question. Yeah. I just want to cycle back to the thing I was talking about, about putting yourself on the fence. I forgot to mention that one of my close friends, Gabriella, was going to be watching today if it was working. She videotapes everything. So you may not catch it in the moment, but you can certainly see when you play that thing back.
my God, look what I was doing or look what great I was doing. also want to, you want to feel good about yourself, but also this idea that you don't have to be aware of it in the moment. can learn from just watching yourself in that way. If you don't have someone to help you. And the second thing is, is what Kirsten was talking about, about this, taking a pause. my friend, Dr. Jennifer's Zellig's who wrote this, her newest book is called the Zen and the art of animal training. And, she's.
taken up secular Buddhism and she's doing meditation and in her in her current course online course, she encourages you to do 10 minutes of meditation before you even start with the horse. But the thing that got me the most was this idea that if things are just getting confusing and you're not sure where you are, that she calls it a reset, which is like a one minute meditation.
Just a chance to give yourself like a second, a minute to just reconnect back and see if that doesn't change your perspective again. it's just my couple of comments on that.
Paula (31:19)
That's cool. I love that idea of taking a moment because that moment and that pause for us allows all of those, stress hormones and chemicals in our body that might be putting us out of a more relaxed and easy state, right? And they might be putting us into that sympathetic state where we're a little more aroused. Our horse is going to pick up on that. But also it's the same for the horse, right?
We're allowing them to take a break, regroup, re-center inside of themselves. And so now their nervous system state is going to be coming at it, in a better place. So now each of us are in better states of being in order to communicate with each other. And I think this is cross species. It goes for humans too. You know, if you're in an elevated conversation, you could take a pause.
And now when you come together, it makes it much better. And I also think that for our audience, because a lot of the audience here in the fair, they have their horses at home and they're working on their own and they're doing a lot of things by themselves with nobody really to watch. And we've got such great tools with us. We've got telephones, everybody's got one in their pocket. So go prop it up on a fence post or.
get a Pivo. I mean, there's a lot of different ways we can record ourselves so that we can step back and take that third person perspective ourselves and or I would say the majority of the people in the fair, if you resonate with them, you can check into what they have available. And I think many of them probably have the ability to do coaching.
from a distance by just submitting a video. So that's another great option to get that feedback that you need. So yeah, thank you. I appreciate that elaboration on that answer. So we're going to go into the last question. And the last question is going to, I'm gonna start with you, David, since you were last in the first question. How can people learn?
different methods without becoming scattered or confused.
David (33:30)
Yeah, well, I thought I was thinking about that as the overall topic, actually. And I appreciate that we got into some other things earlier. But the overall topic of this, you know, as relates to the fair, because there's 60 people with 60 different points of view on the fair. And you probably don't get to watch all of them. But even if you pick the four or five, there's going to be conflicts. There's going to be different approaches. And I thought it was very interesting as I was waiting to get on the Zoom session, the title of this
This panel discussion is called, is No One Right Way. So how do you know what is right for you and your horse or something like that? But the window of the waiting room broke it off to where it said, there is no one right.
Paula (34:09)
you
David (34:10)
And that's my message here. one is
Paula (34:13)
Yeah.
David (34:14)
right. Everybody has got some good ideas and we try to get scientific and we try to go with our experience and more experiences better, but nobody really knows. No one can claim to be the one right way. And even Pat Peroli, who you might say is pretty well-defined about what he feels is the right way for beginners.
He will tell them, look, you know, don't try to mix and match, you know, pick one person to follow and at least get the basics following one person so you don't get confused. And I said, that's the biggest thing is if you don't, you know, you, if you're extremely intellectual and you have a lot of horse experience and you have great rapport with the horses. Yeah. You can, you can almost intuitively pick and say, well, you know, that's not that piece of that thing is not that trail loading thing. It's not really going to work for me.
But over here, see Madison's doing it with a target inside the trailer and I like this. You can mix and match if you are really experienced. But if you're beginning, I'm not sure that Pat's advice isn't pretty good in that case. And it's pretty big for him to say, it doesn't have to be me. Just pick somebody and don't be mixing and matching too much in the beginning.
But a lot of the audience is more sophisticated. So I would say at that point, look for conflicts in the things that you are doing and the things that you want to try and see. Let's try to reduce the number of conflicts so that the horse is not getting mixed messages and getting into a state of confusion or confliction.
that you're not giving him consistent message. So try to keep the, from the horse's perspective, keep away from things that are opposite approaches. And the other thing is that if people are...
looking to combine techniques, I try to stay away myself from anybody who is too far in one direction that says it has to be this way and it cannot be the opposite way. So in my world, I live in between the worlds of, you know,
traditional pressure and release, natural horsemanship training and positive reinforcement, bridge and target training. And I live in the world that's right in between. And for me, that works great. So I've combined those two because I get the benefits of both. But what I see is that bothers me the most is the people who say, well, I would never use positive reinforcement. The horses only respond to this herd mentality, herd structure training or
I would never use that. would only use treats and positive reinforcement. So I think if somebody is telling you never even look at what the opposite side is doing, that's a mistake. So I think it's okay to combine, I think, you know, try to take a perspective when you are combining that, that don't listen to the people who are telling you never look at the other side, because there's something wrong with that. Because in the beginning, what I said is there was no one right.
Paula (37:16)
Yeah, excellent. It's that whole, it depends, right? It depends. So, All right, so Kirsten.
Kirsten (37:23)
And I don't know if I am alone in this, but it was really awkward as a student and has, I guess could still happen when different mentors or different people I worked with that I had the great respect for disagreed with each other. And I felt like I was sort of stuck in the middle, but going, this person has a point and that person has a point. And I think what it came down.
for me to sort through information was taking the time to realize whether or not it was working for my horse. At the end of the day, no matter how famous or somebody is or how successful they've been, I had a little gray Arabian mare that wasn't going to have it. She's like, no, that's not working for me. And learning to listen to our horses.
I think is the ultimate navigation tool for different information that we're sorting through and processing, even if it's conflicting information, like positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, both of those are tools, but what do you use and when, again, comes back to the individualness of people and horses. So taking the time to really understand what our horse is saying to us,
through behavior. What does it mean for a horse to feel safe, stable, and comfortable, right? Are we meeting those needs? Then we can sort through the information. And I think we write off things that aren't working for our horses. We attribute problems to poor confirmation. This breed can't do that job. This breed, you know, this age or this temperament or this is a hot horse or this is a cold horse.
I go at the end of the day, they all share the same anatomy, the same set of instincts, the same nervous system. So instead of looking at the limitations of an individual, I go theoretically, ideal balance is actually the same use of the nervous system, the same coordination of the anatomy, the same result in ease of motion, ease of life. I go so.
The first thing I had to do was really believe in my horse. go, my horse at any age can always improve if I find the right way to get there with any confirmation. So if I have these goals, it's like some horses might be born like a, like a human athlete. just, they naturally know how to use their bodies. They're athletic.
They move through training maybe easily, but everybody has to develop skills at some point. You can't rely entirely on talent. And other horses, just like other people, maybe don't have enough and as much innate talent, but can learn skills. I go so through skill development, which is what training should be. If I believe in my horse, then I'm going to find methods and information and tools and techniques.
that enhance my horse's ability to feel safer, feel stable doing the job we're asking them to do, and feel comfortable, which means like an ideal coordination of the body is the most efficient coordination of the body. So it brings ease of movement. It brings grace and beauty to all the gates, no matter the breed, no matter the age. So if I'm not taking
those as excuses for like saying, some programs when they can't adapt to the individual will basically say this horse is too old, this horse has too jaded of a past, this horse has bad confirmation, or the rider isn't working hard enough, or the rider doesn't have enough talent.
And I sort of go pish-posh. It's in there somewhere for all of us. And I've switched mentors or looked around or filtered through information going, what's helping me and my horse not just get where we want to go, but enjoy the process and become better because of training. Become more sound, healthier, more physically capable, braver.
more trustworthy, a mutually beneficial relationship for both of us. And so if what I'm doing is not resulting in that, then I go, I can take the pieces from anybody I learned from and go, hey, that was a great idea. That really worked for me as an individual, for my horse as an individual. And then when it quits working, I don't have to blame the horse or blame the person.
I need to go find out more information. And that's where we can all learn from each other is where we get stuck. There is no right answer because it all depends. And that is the most wildly unpredictable thing in the world is how a horse and a person and that combination of the two is going to process or respond to anything. But I go, if we're not becoming better for it,
We've sort of learned to tolerate this stress or struggle or, you know, overuse of leverage tools or things that just really aren't in the horse's best interest, but we say they're necessary to get where we want to go. And I go, well, why can't I just enjoy every step of the way? Yes, there's going to be challenges and moments of stress, but let's minimize those.
And those moments are the training opportunities. Because if I can try out some strategy or some technique or some thing and my horse feels better, I feel better, things get easier, then that's something I can keep. And if it doesn't, I think the hard part for people who are working on their own and going through this, because the horse will tell you, you don't know what you're doing every day. And it's true.
We don't know what we're doing. trying to figure it out. But if that feedback is the behavior getting better, is my horse more affectionate? Are things just getting easier? Not so difficult. Then those I'm going to repeat until they quit working. And then I'm not going to blame the horse or lose belief in myself. I'm going to go, I need more information. I need to go searching again and see.
We're all learning we learn through trial and error and so do horses So mistakes are part of the process not a setback They're a call to go add another layer from somebody else what do you need to know now and by sort of taking that staunch defense of your own horse and your own worthiness it's like you start sorting through who you want to work with because
Ultimately, as the horse owner, you have to believe in your horse sometimes more than anybody else does. And answers are out there. you know, they're there to be found if we keep looking.
Paula (44:09)
That's great. Thank you, Kirsten. I think that was a great answer. let you go on a little longer because you
touched on some really key points. And one of them that I think is so important is, well, first of all, there's the idea of it depends, but then letting your horse and your own gut feeling have a vote in the process. think sometimes it's very- Absolutely.
Kirsten (44:29)
Absolutely.
Paula (44:30)
Yeah. I think it's very difficult because
people will be working with an in-person instructor or there's a clinician that they follow and maybe they show up at a clinic and they're doing something a little bit different than that instructor or clinician or whomever might be doing. And then there's some judgment that can come in from that external party as to what they're doing because that external party might see that their way might work.
better and it indeed might. It depends though, right? It's that idea of it depends.
Kirsten (45:04)
depends.
Paula (45:04)
So if it's not working, we need to be able to, back to David's, be the fly on the fence post or the, you know, the one on the fence post to take that third party perspective and go, okay, as an overview, how do I see this? And then from there, we're in a place of power to make a decision.
as to what is going to work best for ourselves and our horse. And it does not mean that you need to defend yourself or your position or explain yourself or your position to that instructor or person at that moment. But then maybe when you get home, you can reflect on...
how that worked and maybe how you were previously doing it worked and then come up with your own formulation as to what's working best for yourself and your horse moving forward. thank you for that, Kirsten. That was excellent. Julie, I'm going to have you go ahead. did you want me to repeat the question? OK,
Julie (46:03)
That's always helpful. Sure, thank you.
Paula (46:06)
yeah.
How can people learn from different methods without becoming scattered or confused?
Julie (46:11)
think for me what David said and what Kirsten said. So I will add to that for me, my litmus test across the board is safety. Is my horse safe? And am I safe that just very straight across the second thing is am I having fun? I've known David of David for a long time. He may or may not remember I clinic with him in the early 1990s and he used to carry a
little figurine with him. when you did something right, he tossed it at you and he really broke the ice to make learning as you know, back for back then the learning was fun as opposed to high pressured. So safety number one, fun. There we go. I was going to say that's funny and I thought, oh, what if I'm wrong? That's too funny.
Paula (46:58)
But in second.
Julie (46:59)
has to come first for my horse. number two, it's got to be fun.
I too heard from Pirelli long ago, pick one path and stick to it for a while. think, you the answer to every single question today really is it depends. And that's the question with, you know, every horse in every situation. I would give a little warning if someone's using the words always, like you should always do this and always do that, or never do this and never do that. That is a turnoff for me because I've learned in my 30 plus years with horses that
it's just too many shades of gray. If it was a simple checklist or a simple flow chart, we wouldn't even be sitting here talking about it. know, safety first, second is fun, third, I do think it's important to find a mentor along your way and that mentor can change from time to time. For myself personally, as both a professional and a professional learner, I stop once a year.
And for me, our schedule kind of runs, we're off in the summer here in South Carolina, it gets really, really hot. So I do a deep dive in junior July. I take just, you know, a day or two where I carry my notebook around. spend some undemanding time with horses. I review notes, videos, pictures, and I kind of just do an assessment. You know, what went really great for us this year? What was kind of hard for us and what do we want to do different? And I also like to revisit my goals.
It seems real easy to do this in January, but I like to do it in the summer because it just gives me a recheck and a way to really see is where I'm studying, where on the path I really want to go. I think in the very beginning, it's a really good idea to break it down to what path are you on? And now I think, you know, back in the day, it was just ride, ride, ride. You know, that's the only reason you had a horse to ride. And if you couldn't ride, you got rid of it.
And I think today we're with horses for many, many more reasons than that. But the fact remains the horse is still a horse and those horses have basic needs. And one of those is a social need to be with other horses and that crosses over to be with people. And I just, you know, I always going to go back to the way of the horse. Does this align? We, know, as humans bringing horses into domestication, we're given a responsibility for that to prepare them for our environment.
And I think it equally comes as positive that we need to look back at their environment. So if I'm following someone and I feel like I'm just getting down a rabbit hole, I want to make sure that the interest is for me and the goal where we're going. And I can just kind of earmark the rabbit hole and go, okay, let me just come back to the surface. Is this an alignment? And understanding that, you know, it's easy to fall down rabbit holes, but let's kind of have an overview.
of what's important to you at that time. And as we've already said, not everything can be important all at the same time, just like it can't be for a horse. So whether that's pursuing groundwork, pursuing liberty work, taking a deep dive into the central nervous system and how that works. think you really need to, you can't do it all at one time, the horse can't do it all at one time, but pace yourself and the help of a really great mentor that you resonate with is priceless.
Paula (50:07)
really. think that times have changed so much. We used to use our horses for jobs and they almost were a tool. And so therefore, a lot of the things that we were doing with our horse was to get them to a place where we could get a job done. And then, we put them up at the end of the day when we were done doing that job. It's really fun.
I too worked with David in the early 90s and it was maybe midnight, it might've been like 95, but it's so interesting to watch the evolution of horsemanship as we start to repurpose ourselves and our horses and that partnership together because now we're no longer doing jobs and now it's okay to sit.
and just read a book out with your horse and enjoy them. Now it's okay to use treats to encourage them to be an active participant in the learning process where they're getting really eager and they want to learn because they're looking for that next reward. And we're starting to analyze things in a way where we've got a much deeper understanding of what's going on beneath the surface in both our own bodies and our nervous systems and the same with the horses. And so
We've got this ever expanding base of knowledge and ever expanding sort of toolbox to be able to grab tools and put them into our own toolbox. And so I love the idea, Julie, of pausing because it's all so much and there's so much change all the time that it can feel like we are
needing to stay on top of that very next thing so that we know we're doing the right things, you know, with our horse. But it goes back to what Kirsten was saying with having your horse have a vote in it and being aware of what they're saying is working right now with them, which will change depending on the task and what you're doing that day and how both of you are showing up that day. So having a full toolbox is great.
But because of everything moving so fast and this quick evolution of how we can maybe go about working with our horses, it's so important to take that time, like Julie was saying, and take that step back and look at it from a bird's eye view, like David was saying, and take a little breather and just reevaluate the things that we already have used and have tried with our horses. And I think...
you know, maybe that idea. go ahead, David. Are you raising your hand? Yeah.
David (52:45)
I will.
Paula (52:46)
yeah.
David (52:47)
You touched on it after Kirsten spoke about this idea. I mean, love what Kirsten said. Your horse is going to tell you if this is a good idea or not a good idea. This is when you get conflicting instruction from different instructors or the instructor that you happen to be with at the moment. And then you touched on it. Yeah, well, you're in a clinic and the instructor tells you to do something and you don't think it's right.
This is a very, very tough position to be in because the instructor has a lot of authority and the instructor also, there's peer pressure. You feel embarrassed to not go along with what everyone is doing. Everyone else is doing this. I don't think it's right for my horse. It's a very difficult place to be in. And I encourage people to stand up and say, thank you. And you can imagine how much peer pressure and how much pressure there is when Pat Peroli says, show me
you know, show me 20 lead changes in a row here. And you, as an instructor for him, you know, for you to say no, there's this tremendous amount of pressure there. And I, you know, I remember, you're going to remember Kristen Bruce, who lives in Texas now. He was sitting on the fence when we were doing this exercise. And I said, is everything okay? He says, yeah, yeah, I had a young horse. She's had enough. Dad.
that takes a lot to go against all the peer pressure and all the pressure from above who was, you know, Pat was also his superior in the, in the training structure and the instructor structure and to take, so it takes, you know, some, you know, inner strength to say, you know, my horse, this is not good for my horse. And so many people have
come afterwards and said, I wish I had, I wish I would have stood up because look what happened. I'm, you know, I knew that wasn't going to be good. And the horse got caught or the horse got injured or the horse got upset. So, you know, don't be afraid to say, thank you now. And, you know, let the, let the instructor, you know, read what he wants out of it. doesn't, it shouldn't affect you. That's a very, very difficult position to be in and just, you know, feel it.
listen to your horse and then stand up for what your horse is telling you and you probably won't go wrong doing that. The other thing was that Julie brought up this guy I can't believe I found him in the desk right here.
I just say that Bug Bunny, he was a great horse trainer because he was flexible and he was infinitely patient because he would, you know, stand there and wait for the horse. And he also had a carrot.
Paula (55:07)
you
David (55:07)
And then I would toss him out to different people, you know, and they gave a good answer or whatever. And then my friend, Yvonne Tilstead from Oklahoma, she was making stuff, stuff and, you know, I would toss him and occasionally he would land on the ground. And so she made him a
A little helmet. So that when somebody dropped him.
I haven't used this in, I got 20 years or more because I switched to Gumby and Pokey because Gumby also flexible, patient, and he had a horse, right?
Kirsten (55:33)
Mm-mm.
David (55:34)
He's been back in this drawer for another 20 years now.
Julie (55:37)
Yeah.
David (55:38)
I can thank my friend Gabriella for having me clean my office so I knew where to find him.
Paula (55:42)
So I think closing comments would be great from all of you. So that
David (55:48)
That was mine.
Paula (55:49)
was yours. Okay. So then Kirsten, I'm going to have you do closing comments and then Julie, I'm going to let you wrap it up.
Kirsten (55:55)
I loved this discussion today because I think so many, especially people who maybe aren't interested in any specific discipline, they just want to ride their horse, they want to explore horse ownership, for many different reasons. Some people want to just ride and other people never want to ride. I go, it's fine either way. But how do we navigate all this information?
think if we, how do I say this? Like when people told me I don't have enough talent or my horse can't do that or my horse isn't good for that, I had a little feisty side, hot-blooded mare of going, nope, you just don't know how to teach me and I'm moving on. And so that kind of attitude I think is how we develop our own
syllabus, our own training program that is uniquely tailored to us and our horses, no matter what we want to do. And even in the competitive world, it's really evolving away from the sort of just the physical aspect of it. Can you do the competitive test versus the health and condition of the horse?
I go, we don't start listening to our horses, if we're not looking at training or training techniques that are making our horses more athletic, more comfortable, more sort of that they are benefiting as much as we are from this relationship of horse and human, if we're not looking at training from that perspective up into the highest competitive levels,
I think there's talk about horses being kicked out of the Olympics because if people don't see that what we're doing is benefiting horses, then why are we doing it? And I think having the awareness, all these different fantastic tools about nervous systems and biomechanics and three-dimensional balance through physics, all of these
different ways of looking at training at the end of the day. Does it bring me more ease and joy? Does it bring my horse ease in body and mind, mentally, emotionally, physically? And if we're part of the herd, soon as you can catch your horse, you're in the herd. So it's like, are we in the herd as a demanding despot?
Or are we on this board of directors with our horses where we can let ideas flow and kind of go back and forth with our horse, have a genuine nonverbal conversation, right? Which most of verbal communication is nonverbal anyways. We still have tone and frequency and body language and all of that. And horses have that too. If we quit looking at things that our horse chooses to do,
as good, bad, right, wrong. I go, they're just communicating with us. What are they trying to say? And you know, what are they trying to get through my thick head? In other words, my horses were relentless, right? Same behavioral problem until I figured it out. And then the behavior changed because the behavior was a message. And I called it private lessons from my horses because they were, they're relentless.
at repeating whatever annoys us until we get that new piece of information that makes the change. So I think that's my wrap.
David (59:21)
Amen.
Kirsten (59:21)
Amen.
Paula (59:21)
Okay, Julie, it's on you now.
Julie (59:24)
All right. Well, I think that's great, Kirsten. It's been a time in my life where I'm training multiple horses for other people and they all three have the same problem. And I'm like, well, I'm the only common denominator. So if all three horses are doing X, then I need to change it. And really, I think for me, the horse is the ultimate teacher.
So I would say in wrap up number one, the answer to every question anybody has in regards to horses is it depends. There are a lot of factors. There's a human factor and the horse factor. And from there, it could be a whole myriad of things. It's not a straightforward path. Number two, I would say put in the pause, know, put down your phone sometimes, get away from the videos, go out and invest three sessions with your horse for an hour each.
And you know, just get away from the books and get with your horse, whether that's the walk, whether that's doing some Liberty, whether that's an undemanding trail ride, open up that time for conversation with your horse because the horse wants to tell us we're the ones with a thick head and you know, safety is important. That's another big piece in traditional riding. You know, the joke around here is, know, if you're not puking in your riding lesson, they're not pushing you hard enough because I live very traditional sporting world.
So I think that's not necessary. You shouldn't feel unsafe and it's okay to get off your horse. I mean, if I could preach to anything to anybody, just have the permission to get off the horse and ignore what people say to you because get two feet on the ground, you're gonna be safe. Then you're gonna have communication and both you and your horse can get back in balance. And three, I would say, just be curious.
When a behavior or situation comes up, you're at the end of your rope, you don't know what to do, instead of getting frustrated, step back into that pause and get curious. Like, well, why does my horse paw every time we're somewhere? Or why is my horse is making this blowing sound? I loved what David was sharing about the different, I watch eyes blink a lot, I watch ears move, I watch mouth muscles and facial things, I watch.
Even which foot the horse is standing on i really consider myself a professional observer and trying to translate what do the slightest things that's the pressure the angle the flick of a tail the the shift of a shoulder they're always communicating and can i open myself for what they want to say even if i don't like it and then if i get stuck you know try to find someone who.
has more experience and has a communication style that I can work with because in this age of sharing knowledge, I just love the way people are getting together on Zoom calls or doing collaborative work together. Tixman out there, you know, gathering people. David does that really well, as does Karen, as do you, Dupala. It's just great fun to be part of what I think of as the proactive network of supporting people in their relationships with horses because, you know, if there was one way to do it.
we'd all be riding bareback and bridalist down the beach on the black stallions with our hair flowing, laughing and giggling with each other. it's a magical journey. Enjoy each step along the way. And if you're not enjoying the ride, change something.
David (1:02:31)
Yay. Amen again.
Paula (1:02:33)
So
much, all of you. This was fantastic.
what a great way to bounce ideas off one another and to dive deep into some of the things that really matter with our horses. So again, thank you.
